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Question about Fortune cast on a unit with an IC attached
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 01:04   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Question about Fortune cast on a unit with an IC attached

This recently came up in a game and we diced off just to keep things moving but I'm looking for people's opinions to help shed some light on the issue.

What happens when Fortune (also this would affect Guide as well) is cast on a unit with an Independent Character attached at the start of the Eldar players turn , and in the movement phase the IC moves out of coherency with the unit therefore detaching him and making them two separate units?

1) Do all the models still retain the benefits of the spell? If yes than why?
2) Does just one of them (the squad or the IC) retain the benefit? If yes than which one and why not the other?
3) Do they all lose the benefit of the spell? If yes than why?

Just so the wording is here Fortune states .. Nominate one Eldar unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer. This unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes until the start of the next Eldar turn.

Now also to add to this predicament this questions leads me to another similar yet different question...

What happens when Fortune (Guide as well) is cast on a unit at the start of an Eldar players turn, and in the preceding movement phase an Independent character moves within 2" of the squad therefore becoming a member of the unit?


1) Does the Independant character gain the benifit of the spell because he joined the unit? If yes than why?
2) Do only the models that received the initial buff at the start of the Eldar players turn benefit from the spell for its duration and any IC that join then still only roll 1 save while the rest of the squad gets to re-roll? If yes than why?
3) Does the IC joining the squad make them lose the benefit of the spell? If yes than why? Also if yes what happens if the IC dies in the Eldar players ensuing assualt phase, would the squad then regain the buff for its duration?

In answering these questions I feel to be taken seriously one would have to be consistent in what they answer for both questions. So what do you guys think?
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 01:21   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Question about Fortune cast on a unit with an IC attached

The spell is cast on the unit. If an IC joins them, even after the spell has been cast, he benfits from it, for he has now become a part of the unit. If he is a part of the unit, it is cast and he leaves, he can choose to keep it and the unit loose it, or the unit can keep it and he loses it. At the end of the movement phase how many units are there? If there are 2 or more, only one gets to beneift from the power. If it is one unit, they can use it.
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 04:19   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Question about Fortune cast on a unit with an IC attached

I simply dont cse before the movment phase, i do my powers between movement and shooting
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 05:11   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Question about Fortune cast on a unit with an IC attached

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel of Ulthwé
I simply dont cse before the movment phase, i do my powers between movement and shooting
Unless otherwise stated, I believe psychic powers must be cast "at the beginning of the turn," which would indicate that Reserve Roll -> Powers -> Movement phase.

This was a looooong debate a good while back on these forums - if it's different in 5th edition, let me know.

As far as the original post goes, I've always believed that, if the power is cast on a unit including an IC, that the power doesn't actually "wear off" if the IC leaves - that is to say, both units retain it as normal. There's no real ruling on this, I don't believe.

On the other hand, if an IC joins the group that has already been Fortuned/Guided, it does NOT gain the benefits, nor would the squad gain the benefits for an IC who is under the effects - after all, the powers granted information about specific people in the Eldar forces, and that does not change just by proximity.

The psychic powers in question are not really dynamic powers - in essence, the Farseer is looking into the future, figuring things out, and relaying the information to his troops. For that reason, I say that all models involved in the originally-targeted unit maintain the effect until it wears off, or don't have it to begin with.
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 08:21   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Question about Fortune cast on a unit with an IC attached

(I think my codex is in my car and its wayyy to cold out for me to run and grab it however..) I believe it states on the page that describes the powers that unless otherwise noted they are all cast on the start of the Eldar players turn. It also says something about not requiring LOS unless noted as well.

I was personally leaning towards Tig's explanation before I posted this myself but I'd love to hear any more input!
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 12:14   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Question about Fortune cast on a unit with an IC attached

The powers are cast before the movement phase (cept mindwar and Eldritch storm) on a target unit. If a model joins said unit, they benefit, if they leave, they are no longer part of said unit and lose the ability....
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 22:52   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Question about Fortune cast on a unit with an IC attached

Quote:
Originally Posted by The "Shakey" Of The Lambs
The powers are cast before the movement phase (cept mindwar and Eldritch storm) on a target unit. If a model joins said unit, they benefit, if they leave, they are no longer part of said unit and lose the ability....
So what about a power that's cast on an IC who proceeds to join a unit? The "unit" of the IC no longer exists, so does he no longer benefit from the power?
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Old 22 Dec 2009, 00:13   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Question about Fortune cast on a unit with an IC attached

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel of Ulthwé
I simply dont cse before the movment phase, i do my powers between movement and shooting
I'm sorry but that is just completely wrong. At the beginning of the turn means at the beginning of the turn. That would be before movement. It must be nice to move your unit you intend to 'guide' just into range of the farseer power right before they shoot but that is just explicitely not the way it works. You cast your powers BEFORE you begin your movement, and that's just the way it is. You are either misinterpreting the rules or deliberately ignoring them if you are playing it like that. The point of them making the rules like that is so you have to predict which power will be most useful where before you actually commit to your turn (kind of like being a farseer?).

Yeah I wish it was like the way you play it, but essentially, that's cheating. Maybe you didn't mean to so it's cool. But knowing that the order-of-operations exists helps, even if it cramps your style.
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Old 22 Dec 2009, 02:58   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Question about Fortune cast on a unit with an IC attached

Quote:
Originally Posted by The "Shakey" Of The Lambs
The powers are cast before the movement phase (cept mindwar and Eldritch storm) on a target unit. If a model joins said unit, they benefit, if they leave, they are no longer part of said unit and lose the ability....
Where'd you get that ruling? It doesn't make sense, through the nature of the powers being used.
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Old 22 Dec 2009, 06:14   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Question about Fortune cast on a unit with an IC attached

Well look at it this way.

Unit A is fortuned.

IC (Unit B) Joins unit A, they count as one unit now for pretty much all purposes, he benefits from it. Its is UNIT A still. If he leaves, he becomes a seperate unit (Unit B) and is no longer under the afect unless you specifacaly targetted him.

If you were abe to target a squad with an attached IC, too amny models would be able to benefit and be quite dangerous. Fortune can only ever be cast on one unit, and by my reasoning can only ever benefit one unit.
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