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Guardian's Rant: Warning Stats content!!
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Old 10 Oct 2009, 20:07   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NS Canada
Posts: 621
Default Guardian's Rant: Warning Stats content!!

So I was checking out what Shakey is going to be doing for tactica, and I saw that my favorite unit was not included. Now, I don't blame anyone for not bringing up Guardians, they have such a bad rep when compared to other races (IG, Orks). Here's my problem, I love these angry little underdogs, and I made my army base out of them. The basic list I run at 1000 points is:

Farseer, guide and doom, stones, RoWitness.
Falcon w/ EML, Holo, stones
Fire Prism as above
Waveserpent TL-BL, stones
War Walker 2XEML
3 guardian Squads (10, 12, and 12) with 2 EML and one with Starcannon
Dire avangers, bladestorm style.

And believe me when I say, I would swap out the Dire avengers in a second if I had more guardians.

"Sau1us, you crazy guy, I can't imagine you do very well in games!" I hear, yet the worst I have done is a , once. So there is something amiss for sure. This is my attempt to figure out what's going on, why does this army work (assuming that my enemies were not TRYING to let me win).

[hr]

The Guardian: he is a weak, crossed eyed guy with a poor save, carrying an assault Bolter. A couple of his buddies are forced to lug around some big weapon that should probably be on a tank. He costs more than an Ork pointwise, but stats, and special rules should leave him in the dust. With fleet being the only neat thing going for them, this unit doesn't sound great.

The Farseer: Not that great all alone, she likes hanging out with her Eldar minions, telling them "you can shoot better than that!", and shouting obscenities at those being shot, making them feel Really Bad.

Dire Avengers: Elitist Guardians with better tech, with a little bit of a price jump. They clearly are wearing glasses allowing them to shoot the enemy with more precision.

For this I will use 11 guardians with a shuriken cannon, and 8 Dire avengers with bladestorm Exarch.

Guardians hit 1/2, and against the ubiquitous MEq, wound 1/2 as well. Dire avengers get the added bonus that they hit 2/3. Your farseer can help one of these squads, which do you choose? (guide and doom).

Guardians Fire unaided, 20 shots * 1/2 hit *1/2 wound, *1/3 DON'T save, + 3 shots *1/2*5/6*1/3 = 1.8 Eq down, GJ
Avengers Fire unaided (Bladestorm, 3 each plus 5 exarch) 21 shots*2/3*1/2*1/3 + 5*5/6*1/2*1/3= 3.0 Incredible, 1 2/3 better!

Farseer steps in with guide (doom will increase both obviously, proportions will not change)

Guardians Fire: 20 shots 3/4 hit*1/2*1/3+ 3 shots *3/4*5/6*1/3= 3.125, which is 1 3/4 better than before!
Avengers Fire: 21 *8/9*1/2*1/3 + 5 shots*35/36*1/2*1/3= 3.92 Eq Down 1 1/3 better than before. They are only 1 1/4 better than guardians now.

Conclusion: Guide helps you kill more.... OK fine, you knew that but what you may not have known/cared is that guide helps units with poor BS more than those with high BS. Now this is small scale, make that guardian squad larger, maybe two of them, each with their own farseer and a decent heavy weapon (maybe a starcannon) and from an economic standpoint, you are getting more out of them had you invested in dire avengers (who also are only crowd control, no low ap weapons).

A warning though, this trend is not indefinite, as many of you no-believers will quickly point out. I was merely interested in my particular army, at the low points of 1000. In this environment, the potency of a single, or two farseers is strong. So doubt as my army expands, guardians will not cut it, as they would be unsupported.

But right now, my LGS friends are always amazed at the carnage caused by this army, especially because there are no elites, fast attack, aspect warriors beyond Avengers. They have fought Necrons, marines, tau, Tyranids, all several times, drawing the necrons once. So if they can work for me, who knows, maybe you should give these guys a chance!
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Old 12 Oct 2009, 21:22   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Default Re: Guardian's Rant: Warning Stats content!!

All the math in the world won't help the difference between shooting 12 or 18 inches. Additionally, the difference between a 4 or a 5 save is huge when you consider that a great number of the weapons in the game shoot at AP5
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Old 13 Oct 2009, 11:21   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Guardian's Rant: Warning Stats content!!

i completely agree with Guitardian here. having an 18" gun compared to 12" and a 4+ save compared to 5+ is way too valuable to give up. and besides, what are militia soldiers doing with these giant weapons anyways? if you move around like your supposed to with eldar, your not gonna use it unless its a shuricannon. and with BS3, your not really gonna get much out of it unless you throw a guide at them which can be used towards something that would give you better results against what your shooting(for example, giving guide to a unit of war walkers can produce great results because walkers have a much higher capacity to kill something).
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Current Tau Standings:
Against Blood Angels SM: L0, T1, W3
Against Chaos: L2, T1, W0
Against Tyranids: L2, T1, W0
Against Necrons: L1, T1, W2
Orks: L0, T1, W0
Current Eldar Standings:
Against Blood Angels: L0, T0, W0
Against Orks: L0, T0, W0
Against Tyranids: L0, T0, W2
Against Ultramarines: L0, T0, W3
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Old 13 Oct 2009, 15:19   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NS Canada
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Default Re: Guardian's Rant: Warning Stats content!!

The 6 inch difference in guns never really occurred, when in a waveserpent the range doesn't hurt as much, positioning them is easy. Their save becomes an issue then, but not when in cover objective camping. I realize they aren't as good as avengers, but I still find their plight amusing.

At the same time, your war walkers have gotta be 6 inches near your farseer to get that guide benefit. I don't tend to outflank my farseer.

Perhaps I will try a game substituting all guardians with Dire avengers as proxies (with points modified of course). The results should prove interesting! Who knows, maybe I'll be sold.
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Old 13 Oct 2009, 21:53   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Guardian's Rant: Warning Stats content!!

thats a good idea switching guardians for avengers for a game or 2, i might as well do the opposite with my avengers and see what i think.
also, ive tried outflanking war walkers, and it was not fun at all, the unit was decimated while only scoring one immobilized on a baal predator. i put my walkers with my main army, they last longer so they can do more damage, they can assist my main gun line a lot easier, and they can get help from my local farseer before he starts slogging off with the rest of my force. 8)
__________________
Current Tau Standings:
Against Blood Angels SM: L0, T1, W3
Against Chaos: L2, T1, W0
Against Tyranids: L2, T1, W0
Against Necrons: L1, T1, W2
Orks: L0, T1, W0
Current Eldar Standings:
Against Blood Angels: L0, T0, W0
Against Orks: L0, T0, W0
Against Tyranids: L0, T0, W2
Against Ultramarines: L0, T0, W3
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Old 13 Oct 2009, 22:35   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,880
Default Re: Guardian's Rant: Warning Stats content!!

waste a wave sergent for some guardians... blech... yeah it makes their range less of a problem, but what a waste - when you can be hauling around banshees and dragons and destructor warlocks and bladestorm avengers for far greater effect. I don't think its good to try and justify a squad because of its transport that costs more than the squad itself. The biggest weapon on a transport is its cargo IMO, and Guardians just are not that impressive. Attaching a guideseer to improve their wimpiness just distracts an HQ from somewhere he could be more useful with your badass elite units.
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