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Do Vibro Cannons Allow Cover Saves?
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Old 15 Sep 2009, 06:53   #1 (permalink)
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Default Do Vibro Cannons Allow Cover Saves?

As vibro cannons do not need line of sight where there line of pulsating death goes, does it allow cover saves? Either to vehicles, infantry, or both?
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Old 15 Sep 2009, 07:05   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Do Vibro Cannons Allow Cover Saves?

If the model is on cover, I'd say yes. Intervening models is a tough one...

Rules as written I;d say yes, RAI I'd say no...
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Old 15 Sep 2009, 13:39   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Do Vibro Cannons Allow Cover Saves?

hrmm I kinda figured it didn't allow cover saves as it doesn't require LOS and it doesn't actually target a unit.
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Old 15 Sep 2009, 14:13   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Do Vibro Cannons Allow Cover Saves?

It's iffy. Smart missiles ignore LOS, but the enemy still gets cover saves.

I'd be inclined to say it doesn't, myself, but that's just because of the nature of it rather than any of the rules.
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Old 15 Sep 2009, 14:49   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Do Vibro Cannons Allow Cover Saves?

It ignores intervening models, as it says it hits everything withing that line of sight up the its maximum range IIRC (or at least it used to). As for terrain I'm not entirely sure, though I've always assumed it ignores intervening terrain.
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Old 15 Sep 2009, 15:46   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Do Vibro Cannons Allow Cover Saves?

By RAW they get cover saves against wounds if LOS is obscured by terrain or other units unless the weapon's rules say that they don't. For a lot of weapons this represents the firing unit not knowing exactly where they are. Or maybe they just have more to hang on to when the ground starts shaking. There is no question that they get a save if they are in cover. In a friendly game I wouldn't take one due to intervening units/terrain.
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Old 15 Sep 2009, 18:00   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Do Vibro Cannons Allow Cover Saves?

I always gave my targets a cover save without thinking about it.

Basically, if LOS is blocked well enough (and in my cases, they are blocked 100% by standing behind a wall or something), they get a cover save (and that goes for vehicles and monstrous creatures as well). That, or if 50% of the unit is actually in cover, they also get a save.
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Old 15 Sep 2009, 21:34   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Do Vibro Cannons Allow Cover Saves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
By RAW they get cover saves against wounds if LOS is obscured by terrain or other units unless the weapon's rules say that they don't. For a lot of weapons this represents the firing unit not knowing exactly where they are. Or maybe they just have more to hang on to when the ground starts shaking. There is no question that they get a save if they are in cover. In a friendly game I wouldn't take one due to intervening units/terrain.
I think this is more complex then it may first seem.

I know you said for alot of weapons, not all or even this weapon. However In this case the firers do not need to know where the unit is. LOS is not required because this gun doesn't actually target a unit. I did find two things that might shed some light towards my confusion.

Baragge weapons have a modified way of granting cover saves (from the center of the blast as opposed to LOS drawn from the gun due to the arc of the shot). If I fired a barrage weapon at a unit behind a wall and rolled decent to scatter i could hit a chunk of them and grant no cover saves. However lets look at this post in Eldar FAQ.

"Do Barrage Weapons have to rolll to spot a unit of Harlequins with Veil of Tears?"
Yes, barrage weapons must still roll to spot them. They cannot fire if they fail to spot them.


This is due to the firer still having to "Target" the unit of Harlequins. Now let's look at the ruling with a Vibro cannon.

"Do Veil of Tears work aganist weapons that do not pick a target? For example if a Vibro Cannon is fired so it's line goes through a unit of Harlequins, do you hit them even if they are out of your spotting distance?"
Yes, the Harlequins are not targeted specifically, so the Veil of Tears has no effect.


Since it's not targeting this unit The Veil has no effect. The unit needs to be the target of the attack to benifit. Now onto more FAQ..

"Can Vibro Cannon's affect targets out of line of sight? Friendly units? Units locked in combat?"
Yes, they are rather indiscriminate weapons.

This further points out that normal targeting and firing restrictions do not apply to this gun. You aren't targeting a model, you are firing a beam of sound in a direction that effects anything the line passes through within its 36" range regardless of any restrictions.

I can't see how cover can be taken from something that passes through everything within range and doesn't require a target.

At the very least intervening models do not grant cover in my opinion for one glaring reason.. Intervening models specifically requires you to target a unit that is behind another unit. This gun does not target therefore intervening units does not apply.
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Old 15 Sep 2009, 21:50   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Do Vibro Cannons Allow Cover Saves?

But the rules are not permissive. Cover saves are not dependent on being declared the target of the attack. They are dependent on being wounded by a hit and where the hit came from. If a blast weapon (not barrage) hits two units, one behind the other, the one in the back gets cover saves from being obscured. It doesn't matter which of them was originally targeted, or even if neither of them was the weapon's original target. All that matters is the LOS between the firing unit and the unit that is hit. For infantry, if it is not clear, they get a Cover Save.

Barrage weapons have an exception to this, but the Vibrocannon is not a Barrage Weapon. If it ignored Cover Saves, it would have to state that explicitly in its rules. And in either case, even Barrage weapons don't automatically ignore cover you are standing in.

I understand the RAI argument, and agree with it. But the RAW still requires it to say that ignores Cover Saves in order for it to ignore saves provided by intervening models or terrain. As I said, it represents the fact that the unit pointing the Vibrocannon doesn't know where exactly the enemy unit is, so their line is more likely to miss.
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Old 15 Sep 2009, 23:55   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Do Vibro Cannons Allow Cover Saves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
But the rules are not permissive. Cover saves are not dependent on being declared the target of the attack. They are dependent on being wounded by a hit and where the hit came from. If a blast weapon (not barrage) hits two units, one behind the other, the one in the back gets cover saves from being obscured. It doesn't matter which of them was originally targeted, or even if neither of them was the weapon's original target. All that matters is the LOS between the firing unit and the unit that is hit. For infantry, if it is not clear, they get a Cover Save.

LOS is not required for this weapon to cause wounds. (Is this the only ranged attack that causes wounds that is like this?) If all that matters is the LOS between the firer and the affected unit yet LOS doesn't apply to this attack how would they get cover saves?

Barrage weapons have an exception to this, but the Vibrocannon is not a Barrage Weapon. If it ignored Cover Saves, it would have to state that explicitly in its rules. And in either case, even Barrage weapons don't automatically ignore cover you are standing in.

It's not that barrage is really an exception to this so much as the LOS is instead drawn from the center of the blast as opposed to from the gun due to it being fired in a high arc.

I understand the RAI argument, and agree with it. But the RAW still requires it to say that ignores Cover Saves in order for it to ignore saves provided by intervening models or terrain. As I said, it represents the fact that the unit pointing the Vibrocannon doesn't know where exactly the enemy unit is, so their line is more likely to miss.

I don't think this is valid due to the ruling on Veil of tears in the FAQ. If this could still affect a unit of Harlequins under the effect of veil of tears out of spot range then I fail to see how this argument makes sense : /
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