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Recon, Tactic Query and Just Being Nosey
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Old 10 Aug 2009, 21:09   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Recon, Tactic Query and Just Being Nosey

Hi Eldar players, I have a few questions.

Recon
I'm trying to decide (For my 4th army) whether to go for Imperial Guard, Necron or Eldar. I currently play Tau (First), Chaos SM, and Space Marines (Not SMurfs )

Would the battleforce be a good place to start? don't decicde until you've read my tactic idea first please though.

Tactic Query
I've heard, seen, and been beaten by something called a Bladestorm from a squad of Dire Avengers.

Firstly
Is this a standard ability or is it an upgrade made available after getting a squad leader (Name escapes me).

Secondly
Am I right in thinking/remembering, that the Bladestorm doubles the number of shots for one turn but the second turn no shots can be fired. (Can they still run?)

Thirdly
My tactic would be 2 or more squads next to eachother in a static gunline approach. one or two squads fire a blade storm while any over Avenger squads fire normally. next turn, the Bladestormed squads reload their guns, while the non-bladestormed squad bladestorms any targets as a cover for the over squads.

Is this tactic sound? Has anyone tried it before?

Just Being Nosey

How would you discribe the Eldar way of battle compared to Tau, Chaos and Space Marine?

Does the Army list force you to spend more points on elite, fast attack, and heavy support choices then would be spent on troops and HQ?

What are Harlequinns like to use in a game? And do they have to have the same patterns as the 'Eavy Metal team models? Aren't they metal?

Which is the most effective aspect warrior at taking on all-comers?

[hr]

And thats about it.

Zack ;D
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Old 10 Aug 2009, 21:49   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Recon, Tactic Query and Just Being Nosey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead Rating Zack
Recon
I'm trying to decide (For my 4th army) whether to go for Imperial Guard, Necron or Eldar. I currently
play Tau (First), Chaos SM, and Space Marines (Not SMurfs )
Eldar would be more similar to your Tau than anything else you have. Honestly, it really comes down to what models you like because at this point we're pretty much screwed until 6th edition (as our "5th" edition codex contains 4th edition rules). Not that you can't win with Eldar...but I think most Eldar players will agree with me that our level of competitiveness simply isn't tooled to be in line with the other 5th edition codices.

Quote:
Would the battleforce be a good place to start? don't decicde until you've read my tactic idea first please though.
Yes and no. The battleforce is a good deal and comes with some standard tools for us. The problem is that it has no HQ...and a sub-optimal troops choice. (see below). It really think you'd be better off going through some discount vendor like Chaos Mail Order or The War Store and get the units you really want.

Quote:
Firstly
Is this a standard ability or is it an upgrade made available after getting a squad leader (Name escapes me).
You pay points for the Exarch (unit leader) then you pay points for Bladestorm. But it's very economical.

Quote:
Am I right in thinking/remembering, that the Bladestorm doubles the number of shots for one turn but the second turn no shots can be fired. (Can they still run?)
You cannot run & shoot in the same turn. You may move and shoot Avenger weapons in the same turn. Bladestorm does not double the number of shots...but you've got the idea of it.

Quote:
My tactic would be 2 or more squads next to eachother in a static gunline approach. one or two squads fire a blade storm while any over Avenger squads fire normally. next turn, the Bladestormed squads reload their guns, while the non-bladestormed squad bladestorms any targets as a cover for the over squads.

Is this tactic sound? Has anyone tried it before?
Spamming Bladestorm (with Doom & Guide) can be brutal. But, honestly, there are better combinations in our army. I don't think I'd ever suggest that anyone do a static gunline Eldar army. Eldar really need to move around the board to make use of their firepower because we lack range.

Quote:
How would you discribe the Eldar way of battle compared to Tau, Chaos and Space Marine?
Eldar are about three things: flexibility, specialization and priority. Almost every unit we have does only 1 or 2 things really well. Typically, they are among the best in the game at what they do. But the weakness is that they aren't versatile. So having an appropriate mix is key. Being able to get the right unit to the right spot at the right time is also key. Our units are too fragile to handle many mistakes. So you've got to be aggressive, tactical, and fast in your handling of the army.

Quote:
Does the Army list force you to spend more points on elite, fast attack, and heavy support choices then would be spent on troops and HQ?
Yes. Our lists are about our specialist forces. Instead of a typical list (like Orks, for example) which tends to center around the troops choices and you build the army outwards. With Eldar you pick a blend of forces you want (fast, assault, shooty, etc) then use your Troops to augment, complement or compensate as needed.

Quote:
What are Harlequinns like to use in a game? And do they have to have the same patterns as the 'Eavy Metal team models? Aren't they metal?
Harlequin models are metal. They can be painted any way you want. They are pretty decent in game. Though their efficiency has diminished in 5th edition.

Quote:
Which is the most effective aspect warrior at taking on all-comers?
Not a fair question. Eldar don't work that way. We have no "all comer" units.

Hope that helps some.
Cheers,
Em
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Old 10 Aug 2009, 22:12   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Recon, Tactic Query and Just Being Nosey

Blade storm is an upgrade purchased by the Exarch (Eldar “squad leader”) whom you also have to purchase. It enables you to have the unit he’s leading add one additional shot in the shooting phase at the cost of being unable to shoot in the following shooting phase.

The best use of Blade storming avenger’s ( other Eldar player’s feel free to disagree ) is to disembark from a transport and Blade storm to ensure you kill your target. On the following turn re embark on the transport and head to your next target. This turn isn’t wasted due to you being unable to shoot anyways from Blade storming in the previous turn. In my opinion, using a transport (Wave Serpent) is required to use Blade Storming Dire Avengers to full effect. They are a very strong troop choice and are seen in a lot of Eldar List’s.

Eldar way of battle depends on how you decide to specialize your army list. This is one of the main reasons why I enjoy playing Eldar so much. If speed is your game go the way of Sam Hann with jetbikes and skimmer’s galore! If you want a tough durable army go with a Wraith wall setup, If you like Close Combat we have a ton CC specialist to choose from, Like long range gunlines? We have units that have it covered. It’s not “The Eldar way of battle” so much as it’s “Your Eldar way of battle”. How do you want to play your Eldar?

Harlequins effectiveness in 5th really depends on who you ask. Some people haven’t touched them since 4th edition, some people never play a game without them. I personally love them and find they work well in my lists. They are CC monsters with a ton of helpful abilities and if used correctly with the rest of your army, produce great results.

What is the most effective aspect warrior for all comer’s? I’d give that award to Dire Avenger’s. They fill up a needed FOC slot and I very rarely hit the board without them. Massed fire mixed with the right Psychic powers can have some devastating results. However notice how I said “Mixed with..” The Key to Eldar in my opinion is support. There is no John Rambo Unit in the Eldar army, to be effective your units must work together.


Looks like Emlyn beat me to the punch! Best to get multiple opinions anyways I suppose
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Old 10 Aug 2009, 22:37   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Recon, Tactic Query and Just Being Nosey

Quote:
Originally Posted by loeldrad
Blade storm is an upgrade purchased by the Exarch (Eldar “squad leader”) whom you also have to purchase. It enables you to have the unit he’s leading add one additional shot in the shooting phase at the cost of being unable to shoot in the following shooting phase.
This must be dealy with large units of Avengers.

Quote:
The best use of Blade storming avenger’s ( other Eldar player’s feel free to disagree ) is to disembark from a transport and Blade storm to ensure you kill your target. On the following turn re embark on the transport and head to your next target. This turn isn’t wasted due to you being unable to shoot anyways from Blade storming in the previous turn. In my opinion, using a transport (Wave Serpent) is required to use Blade Storming Dire Avengers to full effect. They are a very strong troop choice and are seen in a lot of Eldar List’s.
So mobile killers? But a Wave Serpent can only carry 6 models, making the bladestorm only 18 shots., is that usually enough?

Quote:
Eldar way of battle depends on how you decide to specialize your army list. This is one of the main reasons why I enjoy playing Eldar so much. If speed is your game go the way of Sam Hann with jetbikes and skimmer’s galore! If you want a tough durable army go with a Wraith wall setup, If you like Close Combat we have a ton CC specialist to choose from, Like long range gunlines? We have units that have it covered. It’s not “The Eldar way of battle” so much as it’s “Your Eldar way of battle”. How do you want to play your Eldar?
I usually go between Static Gunline and Running Asualt styles of play. So I guese I'd be looking at a list filled with Dire Avengers, Pathfinders, Scorpions, Harlequinns, and then add a War Walker for those extra heavy weapons.

Quote:
Harlequins effectiveness in 5th really depends on who you ask. Some people haven’t touched them since 4th edition, some people never play a game without them. I personally love them and find they work well in my lists. They are CC monsters with a ton of helpful abilities and if used correctly with the rest of your army, produce great results.
How much steam did they loose in 5th?

Quote:
What is the most effective aspect warrior for all comer’s? I’d give that award to Dire Avenger’s. They fill up a needed FOC slot and I very rarely hit the board without them. Massed fire mixed with the right Psychic powers can have some devastating results. However notice how I said “Mixed with..” The Key to Eldar in my opinion is support. There is no John Rambo Unit in the Eldar army, to be effective your units must work together.
I've already made a mock up earlier.
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Old 11 Aug 2009, 01:30   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Recon, Tactic Query and Just Being Nosey

[quote=Lead Rating Zack]
Quote:
Originally Posted by loeldrad
Blade storm is an upgrade purchased by the Exarch (Eldar “squad leader”) whom you also have to purchase. It enables you to have the unit he’s leading add one additional shot in the shooting phase at the cost of being unable to shoot in the following shooting phase.
This must be dealy with large units of Avengers.

Combined with guide and doom and watch the enemy fall...

Quote:
The best use of Blade storming avenger’s ( other Eldar player’s feel free to disagree ) is to disembark from a transport and Blade storm to ensure you kill your target. On the following turn re embark on the transport and head to your next target. This turn isn’t wasted due to you being unable to shoot anyways from Blade storming in the previous turn. In my opinion, using a transport (Wave Serpent) is required to use Blade Storming Dire Avengers to full effect. They are a very strong troop choice and are seen in a lot of Eldar List’s.
So mobile killers? But a Wave Serpent can only carry 6 models, making the bladestorm only 18 shots., is that usually enough?

They can carry 12.... 10 avengers, farseer and phoenix lord if you want....

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Old 11 Aug 2009, 01:40   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Recon, Tactic Query and Just Being Nosey

the falcon tank can only carry 6 models.
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Old 11 Aug 2009, 01:44   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Recon, Tactic Query and Just Being Nosey

Quote:
Almost every unit we have does only 1 or 2 things really well. Typically, they are among the best in the game at what they do.
Would that this were so. I would rather have Veets with meltas in a Valk thwen Dragons in a Valkyrie.

Give me TH/SS Termies over WG any day. Or even shooty Termies.

Looking for an assault army. Don't rely on Banshees, Scorps and Harlies. I would rather have thirty Orks at a better price.

You think Eldar jetbikes are better then DE bikes? Or better then SM bikes for that matter.

Do you stiull think Falcons and Wave Serpents are the best transports.

Are farseers the best psychics?

Unfortunately I can think of nothing that we are best at. Yes, we are highly specialized and used with synergy and thought can compete - assuming we go mech. DAVU Falcons are great for objective taking but other lists have equally tough squads to grab an objective. Our HQ Seer council is a very tough nut but so are Nob Bikers - which is better?

I love my Eldar - they still do well at tournaments in the hands of experienced players. Those same players could take a different army though and still do as well or better.

On the topic of DA in a Serpent ... there are some units they will not take down. And then they will lose a round of shooting. And you do not want a strong squad assaulting them. The basic rule for Eldar ... never dismount and fire unless you are sure you cannot be counter charged. In fact this holds true for mech guard and any oither mech army. So yes, DA can work but be careful with them. Eldar aspects are very fragile.
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Old 11 Aug 2009, 15:47   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Recon, Tactic Query and Just Being Nosey

This must be dealy with large units of Avengers.

Very! ;D addding farseer powers like Shakey said just makes it that much better!

So mobile killers? But a Wave Serpent can only carry 6 models, making the bladestorm only 18 shots., is that usually enough?

The falcon, which is a heavy choice, can only carry 6 models. However the Eldar dedicated transport, the Wave Serpent, can carry 12. This means you can have a full strength squad, which I always recommend to get the most out of your upgrades, and add a farseer to the mix if you were so inclined

I usually go between Static Gunline and Running Asualt styles of play. So I guese I'd be looking at a list filled with Dire Avengers, Pathfinders, Scorpions, Harlequinns, and then add a War Walker for those extra heavy weapons.

If you like a static Gunline I'd recommend some Dark reapers and a full Unit of 3 War walkers. These units can dish out a good amount of long range hurt. If you do want to footslog CC Scorps and Halequinns are good choices. Veil of tears and Flip belts help keep Harlequinns safe as they move up and Scorps can outflank. Also, even though you sound like you wanna footslog I'd still recommend the Wave serpents for your DA's. This gives you a fast, effective scoring unit to nab objectives late in the game.

How much steam did they loose in 5th?

The rule change on rending from 4th to 5th set them back a bit however mixed with doom they are still very very deadly. Although you do have to be careful with this unit as they are fragile.

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Old 12 Aug 2009, 00:47   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Recon, Tactic Query and Just Being Nosey

Mathhammering it out Harles are still your best recourse against MCs and terminators especially against a doomed squad. Yes, a little better than Banshees or a Seer council point for point. Trick is to get them there untouched and charge the doomed squad. You also need to hit that squad with some dakka and hopefully reduce it a tad before charging. In my tournament list I use Jain Zar with Harlies and fluff be damned. There are a lot of tricks this squad can pull off.
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Old 12 Aug 2009, 01:46   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Recon, Tactic Query and Just Being Nosey

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanaBebe
Would that this were so. I would rather have Veets with meltas in a Valk thwen Dragons in a Valkyrie.
Why? You can easily grab 5 Fire Dragons for 80 points. For 5 more points, you can grab a Vet squad with only 3 meltaguns and 0 meltabombs.

Quote:
Give me TH/SS Termies over WG any day. Or even shooty Termies.
But Terminators =/= Wraithguard. They are two very different units. Wraithguard are arguably as durable than Plague Marines against small arms fire. A unit of 5 Wraithguard cost 175 points, 8 Plague Marines cost more or less the same. They latter packs less of a punch at close range. When facing 20 S4, BS4 shots, the former will take .74 wounds. The latter will take .73 wounds. Sure, they're not Nobz, but they're certainly one of the best when it comes to small arms durability.

Quote:
Looking for an assault army. Don't rely on Banshees, Scorps and Harlies. I would rather have thirty Orks at a better price.
Point for point, Banshess & Scorps are second to none against their respective targets. 30 Orks costs 180 points. For that price I can grab 10 Scorpions with an Exarch with Chainsabres. Toe to toe, the Scorpions will get ~6 wounds on the Orks. The Orks will get 6 wounds back on the Scorpions. That seems pretty even to me. Given that Orks are, hands down, the best assault force in the game, I'll take our assault unit being on par with them.

Banshees are a little weak, IMO, but they're still MEQ killers through and through. Their former rival for MEQ killiness were Genestealers. Stealers still hit earlier, but the new rending rules put them on par with Banshees.

Quote:
You think Eldar jetbikes are better then DE bikes? Or better then SM bikes for that matter.
Eldar bikes are JSJ whereas SM bikers are all about durablity. New LOS rules hurt but they certainly haven't nerfed our bikes.

Quote:
Do you stiull think Falcons and Wave Serpents are the best transports.
I think Falcons are the most durable tank in the game second only to the Monolith, to be honest. Wave Serpents are too expensive given the new pricing for transports.

Quote:
Are farseers the best psychics?
Farseers are the most synergized psychics in the game. No other psyker in the game works so smoothly with their army. Farseers can make an Eldar army amazing. Most other psykers in the game work much more independently. Farseers are also much less likely to take a Perils wound than almost any other psyker in the game.

Quote:
Our HQ Seer council is a very tough nut but so are Nob Bikers - which is better?
Nob bikers are tougher. But again, they're tough in a different way. Seer Council (esp. on bikes) can wade through AP3 weapons with disdain. Nob Bikers fall easily to heavy flamer spam.

Quote:
I love my Eldar - they still do well at tournaments in the hands of experienced players. Those same players could take a different army though and still do as well or better.
Don't get me wrong. I'm extremely miffed about the fact that our codex is already out of date, that practically every army in the game has stolen some aspect of what we used to do best. We are quickly finding ourselves outclassed by mon-keigh forces. That's disenheartening...especially as my army is 90% done. :'( But I don't think we're completely out of the game.
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