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vypers v shining spears
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Old 09 Aug 2009, 06:58   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default vypers v shining spears

fairly self explainitory title. i have been finding lately that my vypers performance have been subpar. i have 2 squads of 2. should i change out 1 or both squadrons for shining spears with autarch? the vypers have emls and shuriken cannon. thanks in advance!!
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Old 09 Aug 2009, 07:54   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: vypers v shining spears

I've used both, but only for a short while. Here's a Shining Spear Tactica for 5th

Spears are an excellent fast moving precision strike CC unit if you have some points. Str6 power weapons at Initiative 4 & 5 eat most things for breakfast but unless you take a full-ish squad *5 is best, but 4 work fine* they'll have a hard time in the next round. But properly equipped they'll run you ~200 points.

Always take Withdraw & an Exarch. And in a higher points game it might be a good idea to bring a Speartarch (Laser Lance, Jetbike, and Mandiblasters if you've got the points) to add some ooomph to your attacks.

The trick to using Spears is to choose the right targets and keep backup nearby. Termies aren't that good of an idea unless you're sure you can kill them all in one round before they hit with their nasty powerfists and then be able to hide from subsequent shooting revenge. Hard to do. And I escort them with anything from Dire Avengers to Storm Guardians with Fusion Guns/Flamers. Both can keep Hordes at bay while the Spears deal with something else in CC. And both can charge in to aid the Spears if things get messy.

Crisis suits on the other hand, are just about the perfect unit for Spears to go after. High(er) toughness than most Eldar units can comfortably handle without Doom, MEq save, and multiple wounds. Not to mention the fact that you'll probably survive the retaliation intact. A full squad of XV8s can take 2 rounds of CC to mostly finish off, and they'll *probably* hold.

Vypers are what you've been using. They're kinda the shooting equivalent of Spears only... more options for them. The proper targets and application of force is important. And they need back up! No Eldar unit should try to play Lone Ranger. Nor should they have to. Always support. I like the EML or the Scatter Laser. Bright Lances & Starcannons are too costly and Shuriken Cannons are much too close for my liking. Look around the Craftworld Eldar board (which you're already at, good boy ) to find stuff like this The Wisdom of Saim or "Stupid Vyper Tricks" as well as reading the stickies for seemingly relevant new ways to use your Vypers. I love 'em. The look soooo cool ;D

I'd recommend squeezing points and trying to fit in a squad of 4 Spears with an Exarch (included in the 4) with Withdraw. That's 177pts.

Then 2 Vypers with EMLs in a squadron is... 130pts?

I'd bring both. One of each. They might even be able to support each other. But I'd keep the DA's around . Can't replace 'em with anything.

At 1000pts this might be a bit much in your FA, but at 1500 you'll probably want more.
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Old 09 Aug 2009, 09:02   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: vypers v shining spears

awesome thanks.

our main point limit is around 1500. so im thinking of trailing a 4 man unit with withdraw, speartarch with mandis, and a star lance.

so that means i would have to get rid of both squads (thank god i havn't bought any of them yet!) but in 2000pts, i might take both vypers and spears to support eachother, vypers shoot cheap grunts so you dont waste the spears, spears charge tough stuff so the vypers don't get charged or shot down.

i actually have an idea for a really cool conversion, needless to say, it involves a fire dragon exarch with a fire pike, and a broken vyper body. should look cool.
__________________
played eldar scince 2000
eldar: since March 2009 (i think)
w/l/t
7/2/2

"my ridiculously circuitous plan is one quarter complete!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man They Call Jayne
From a painting point of view, the eldar are great, they have so many colours and patterns, hence their battle cry "TASTE THE RAINBOW!!"
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Old 09 Aug 2009, 18:45   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: vypers v shining spears

It does sound cool, you should do a conversion tutorial ^-^ (if you can find a camera, after that just go on photobucket.com and get a free account to load stuff on.)

Post your list and link it here, I bet we can find a way to make 'em both fit.

And the Speartarch is completely optional: I actually really like a mounted Doom seer with some Jetlock bodyguards.

What armies do you often play? I could maybe help a bit with what to blast with the Vypers and what to charge with the Spears.
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Old 10 Aug 2009, 07:40   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: vypers v shining spears

i most often play against a foot tau army with 6 sniper drones, 2 broadsides, and a hammer head:

a necron list running 2 heavy D's 3 normal D's a squad if immortals, several warrior squads with a ressurection orb lord and a lith:

and a DA list that is currently running belial with thss terminators x5, in a standard raider, along with an interigator chaplain and 3 or 4 tactical squads.

my army list is in here http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...c,86714.0.html. i have found that in 1500 i will need to drop both vyper squads for a 4 man spear squad with withdraw, star lance and speartarch.

in 1750 im thinking of adding another spear along with a 3 vyper squad. plus watever else i need to fill it out with (exarches for the DA with dual cats and bladestorm all round)

as for the autarch i will indeed try and make a conversion guide (although someone else would have to paint it to do what i have in mind justice :-[)
__________________
played eldar scince 2000
eldar: since March 2009 (i think)
w/l/t
7/2/2

"my ridiculously circuitous plan is one quarter complete!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man They Call Jayne
From a painting point of view, the eldar are great, they have so many colours and patterns, hence their battle cry "TASTE THE RAINBOW!!"
i r cheezy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 Aug 2009, 21:28   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: vypers v shining spears

Well, I haven't gotten the pleasure of krumpin' MEqs with my Eldar yet, so the practicality of my advice might be questionable, but I know theory well :funny:.

I'll give your list a look with that all in mind.

In the meantime I'd say don't worry about the Star Lance: it really isn't that much better against enough things to make it worth it (for me, might be different for others). The Speartarch is probably a good idea (IMO the best use for an Autarch anyway) given that you're facing scary Termies and 'Crons... & don't worry about painting it: it actually helps people see what parts went where if you don't
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Old 10 Aug 2009, 22:09   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: vypers v shining spears

Nice post! This has got me thinking of taking Shining Spears instead of Vypers, too. They dont seem do ever make up their points sitting back and shooting. Shining spears would get right in the enemies face, which I think would be much more useful than 5 rounds of pot shots. Good advice!
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Old 11 Aug 2009, 06:52   #8 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: vypers v shining spears

i'll try and start work on the autarch over the weekend, but we're moving so it may be difficult.

i actually just made a list for 1500 with 4 spears and withdraw exarch accompanying a speartarch along with 2 fire prism's, 4 wave serpents 20 dire avengers with exarch with bladestorm and 2x shuricats in each squad, and 10 fire dragons.

main battle plan is try and deploy second with refused flank or off the table, and either roll his weak flank up, or just charge in on turn 2-3 and pick apart his army when it's spread out. if he's taking TEQ ill frag their transport (if they have one) with a dragon wagon, and then ignore them until the rest of the army is dead or im winning in terms of the objectives.

as for the math hammering, i've found that they can kill around about a tactical squad equivilent a turn, what with the 8 power weapon attacks the normal spears get along with the 5 from the autarch and the 3 from the exarch. add to this combat resolution with the negative 8 or so from wounds caused and you can happily run the remainders of the squad down!

my cron playing friend and myself are planning a get together so i can test ou my new army list on thursday, so i'll write up a battle report to show how the spears go.

thanks for all the advice so far guys!
__________________
played eldar scince 2000
eldar: since March 2009 (i think)
w/l/t
7/2/2

"my ridiculously circuitous plan is one quarter complete!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man They Call Jayne
From a painting point of view, the eldar are great, they have so many colours and patterns, hence their battle cry "TASTE THE RAINBOW!!"
i r cheezy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Aug 2009, 17:25   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: vypers v shining spears

A note on running the rest down: remember SMs are immune to sweeping advances and can voluntarily pull out of CC. May want to be aware of that before you go Mon Keigh hunting with your Spears ;D
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Old 11 Aug 2009, 19:50   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: vypers v shining spears

Just my $0.02 worth: Vypers and Shiners are completely different roles. I use spears on occasion, but they are usually a charge, kill hard, then get shot to bits kind of unit. I use my Vyper as an annoying gnat that often gets ignored. I usually give it a scat or a EML so it has enough range. It prevents backhatch blocks to my transport and picks away and doesn't get much attention paid to it, where the Spears are one hard whack and a huge magnet for fire because they are so much more of a potential threat.

I had the privellige of using a squad of 3 Vyps due to borrowing a couple, and found they were still best used just hovering around in the back splattering their mediocre firepower and often just being ignored by an opponent. Whenever I use spears though, they are a high priority target and often only perform one meaningful strike before getting so much attention that they don't survive long.
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