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Guardian and 5ed
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Old 31 Jul 2009, 18:24   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Guardian and 5ed

I've tried very hard to fit Guardian Defenders into my 5ed lists but the bittom line is that they are way too overpriced for what they bring to the table. With a very short ranged weapon 6" + 12"), very bad cc stats and one heavy weapon, they become an expensive platform for bringing in a starcannon, eml or brightlance. IG are cheaper and have 'orders', Orks are much better in cc and can still pack rokkits or shootas so what makes Guardians worth their points? Now with deepstriking, outflanking and mech lists they are not doing anything for a 5ed list. You can load them up in a serpent but then you are really spending a lot of points for a sub-par squad.

What about Storm Guardians? Well. I've found these to be better. I generally go two flamer, warlock, embolden/spear in a serpent so I have a little AT and a few templates which are pretty good in 5ed. But their problem too is the reliance on transport and a very mediocre save and cc capacity. You are relying on the flamers and warlock to do ninety percent of the damage and whatever weapons you put on your transport. I could get a squad pof terminators at that price. Regardless, with the paucity of troop choices in our codex they are at least viable.

You might well ask why I just do not take DA. Well I'm underimpressed with them as well. They are decent but not statiscally that much better then mounted S. Guardians and Pathfinders are meh. I've never gotten enough kills from them and and with outflanking and deepstriking everywhere they are often targeted fast.


Thoughts?
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Old 31 Jul 2009, 19:00   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Guardian and 5ed

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanaBebe
I've tried very hard to fit Guardian Defenders into my 5ed lists but the bittom line is that they are way too overpriced for what they bring to the table. With a very short ranged weapon 6" + 12"), very bad cc stats and one heavy weapon, they become an expensive platform for bringing in a starcannon, eml or brightlance. IG are cheaper and have 'orders', Orks are much better in cc and can still pack rokkits or shootas so what makes Guardians worth their points? Now with deepstriking, outflanking and mech lists they are not doing anything for a 5ed list. You can load them up in a serpent but then you are really spending a lot of points for a sub-par squad.
I simultaneously agree and disagree with you. Yes, Guardians are horribly overpriced for what they do. Yes, getting only one special weapon in a squad is bunk. Yes, Guardsmen and Boys are both better troops choices than what we get.

That said, there are a couple weapons I'd never equip Guardians with: EML's, Bright Lance, and Starcannon. This is primarily because these weapons lack the ROF to make their high cost worthwhile. But that's just my opinion.

On the plus side, Guardians can take Warlocks (with Singing Spear or Destructor for best effect) and a Wave Serpent (which is a very decent tank). Sub-par? Maybe. But consider that you can drop and pop for a heavy flamer, 20 bolter shots and then 4 S6 shots on top of that. That's not too shabby. Plus you can get your Wave Serpent into the mix.

Will it win games? No. Is is a stable unit with a decent output? Sure is. The unit (without the tank) is going to be ~145 points.

Quote:
What about Storm Guardians? Well. I've found these to be better. I generally go two flamer, warlock, embolden/spear in a serpent so I have a little AT and a few templates which are pretty good in 5ed. But their problem too is the reliance on transport and a very mediocre save and cc capacity. You are relying on the flamers and warlock to do ninety percent of the damage and whatever weapons you put on your transport. I could get a squad pof terminators at that price. Regardless, with the paucity of troop choices in our codex they are at least viable.
Storm Guardians are, IMO, light years beyond Guardian Defenders. That's one of the reasons for my pending army re-vamp. A Warlock with Enhance can yield a unit of WS4 I5 models with two base attacks each. No, they're not Orks. No, they're not Marines. But again, they're a decent staple unit that can take down standard infantry.

Quote:
You might well ask why I just do not take DA. Well I'm underimpressed with them as well. They are decent but not statiscally that much better then mounted S. Guardians and Pathfinders are meh. I've never gotten enough kills from them and and with outflanking and deepstriking everywhere they are often targeted fast.
I think Dire Avengers may warrant a second look. They have a phenomenal output and are strong almost everywhere Guardian Defenders are weak. They are terribly hampered by their inability to take any sort of heavy weapon. But they are infantry killers through and through.

Quote:
Thoughts?
Lots of them. Mainly, as more and more codices come out, it's very clear that Eldar got the short end of the stick. Yes, this is more whining from Emlyn. But that's just the way of it. Ranger Pathfinders are, by far, our best Troops choice. They are, compared to the new codices, pretty average and very expensive. Not to mention they're very much a one-trick-pony.

Our Guardians and Dire Avengers are definitely below the norm. I can field 20 Guardian Defenders and a Shuriken Cannon for 165 points...or 27 Shoota Boyz with Big Shoota (with a better range) for 167 points. Which do you think is going to win out?

I don't think there's any way around it. We're just going to have to wait till 6th edition and hope and pray that Eldar sales fall enough that we get an upgraded codex. Until then, our real ability to deal out damage is going to be restricted to our Elite and Heavy Support choices.
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Old 31 Jul 2009, 19:33   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Guardian and 5ed

I've never opted for enhance on my S. Guardians. I want either Destructor ( which is feasible ) or Embolden which is almost necessary if accompanied by an IC. I always take the singing spear. I too have revamped my lists to include these boys. I guess the loadout is based on what you use for them for most ( some swear by dual fusion guns and I see the logic of it too). At least they are somewhat customizable as their tank and weapons can be optimized for your list.

I have heard the logic of scatterlaser but mounted Guardians with a scatterlaser do not impress me. Static Gurdians even with an Avatar close by are still quite mediocre.

DAs again are just too expensive for their output. Yes, bladestorm is good but then you sit a turn and get shot to pieces. I've seen impressive results from a rouind of firing against swarms but there are other options. I use them in my larger lists only as DAVU. They are perfect for the job. In smaller games of 1000 points I will field a squad.

Quote:
Ranger Pathfinders are, by far, our best Troops choice.
Enlighten me. I've tesated them numerous times and every game any decent list will take them out before they kill anything. Too many outfalnkers and deepstrikers in 5ed to make them viable. Even cc squads have transports and get to them quickly. Five pathfinders shots are not killing much each turn.
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Old 31 Jul 2009, 19:40   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Guardian and 5ed

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanaBebe
Enlighten me. I've tesated them numerous times and every game any decent list will take them out before they kill anything. Too many outfalnkers and deepstrikers in 5ed to make them viable. Even cc squads have transports and get to them quickly. Five pathfinders shots are not killing much each turn.
Well, they've got range and a decent output. So they don't need to be mobile. Their ability to hunker-down and not die is often just plain annoying to most players. In almost every game I've used them, they've made their points back...typically by bringing something big down.

Again, they aren't game-winners, but I think they perform the best on the battlefield. They almost always have a 2+ cover save. Their biggest draw back is that you can't take out squads with them. They're almost exclusively for taking down IC's & MC's. As FNP & Fearless seem to be spammed in 5th edition, I never try to pin with them.
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Old 31 Jul 2009, 20:36   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Guardian and 5ed

Quote:
In almost every game I've used them, they've made their points back...typically by bringing something big down.
This has not been my experience. I seem not to get near enough AP1v shots off and nor near enough wounds with just a squad of five. But good on you. Maybe I need new dice? As for the 2+ save ... it's good for sure but a smart player is either templating with flamers or attacking them so they need a bodyguard further upping their cost ... at least that has been my experience. I have also played against them and my S. Guardians easily moved them off objective with two flamer templates and an attack and hunkered in their spot.

I was a fan of Pathfinders early on in 5ed but then evryone went mech, DS or outflank on me and my prweference for them dropped. That said in a force that is very elite ( eg., 3x Harlie, Eldard, 3x Wraithlords ) they can be good a place holders as you are not relying on them to do anything but survive. But then why not DAVU which are quite a bit better in that role.
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Old 31 Jul 2009, 20:56   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Guardian and 5ed

I think they are lame and I resent the newer ork and Guard grunts for being better and costing less. I use a squad of them to keep my army fluffy, but I don't expect much from them at all. They aren't worth X when a far superior ork costs (X-2) in comparison to their durability and damage output superiority. GW doesn't care. Whenever a new codex comes out, said army gets some massive leg-ups, and the armies they haven't updated get left behind.

How I use them (just because I take them for fluff as I said) is to leave them in the backfield and take my piddly squat single heavy shot every turn, if I even have one. The biggest advantage is that the enemy usually ignores them while concentrating on more dangerous threats, leaving me an intact score unit at the endgame.

I much prefer Avengers, who actually have some range and shoot straight.
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Old 31 Jul 2009, 21:41   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Guardian and 5ed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emlyn
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanaBebe
Enlighten me. I've tesated them numerous times and every game any decent list will take them out before they kill anything. Too many outfalnkers and deepstrikers in 5ed to make them viable. Even cc squads have transports and get to them quickly. Five pathfinders shots are not killing much each turn.
Well, they've got range and a decent output. So they don't need to be mobile. Their ability to hunker-down and not die is often just plain annoying to most players. In almost every game I've used them, they've made their points back...typically by bringing something big down.

Again, they aren't game-winners, but I think they perform the best on the battlefield. They almost always have a 2+ cover save. Their biggest draw back is that you can't take out squads with them. They're almost exclusively for taking down IC's & MC's. As FNP & Fearless seem to be spammed in 5th edition, I never try to pin with them.
I have to say, almost every single game I've fielded pathfinders, they've died horribly under some flame template without a single kill. If I'm lucky, they take down a handful of guys worth 1/2 their points.
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Old 01 Aug 2009, 15:22   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Guardian and 5ed

I agree with emlyn here. our troops are not what they use to be. pathfinders/rangers dont have the damage output, jetbikes are expensive and small, guardians die very easily, and avengers are only good in certain setups and even then they get targetted the most. The thing to remember is it doesnt matter how much my opponent destroys or how much I destroy of theirs, but if I have one more objective or kill pt than they do. I have found that synergy is more viable for the eldar to win games now more so than ever. target 2-3 units your opponent has that you can destroy in one turn or make unuseable for a turn with everything you got. then wash rinse and repeat again.
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Old 03 Aug 2009, 17:12   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Guardian and 5ed

On the contrary, I find guardians very useful. In 2500 points games I field 2 squads of 15, each with a warlock and conceal and a scatter laser. In normal games, I always take them. The reason is because the majority of my Eldar army is footslogging, and an 8 point model dying is better than my striking scorpions or DA's biting the dust. If theyre lucky enough to get to the front lines, they're basically guardsmen with bolters. I cast guide on them and watch them mess up an MEQ squad or annihilate a mob of orks.

Regarding CC: Theyll never fall back because I keep the avatar of khaine near ll my units, and if they get assaulted, they count as fearless so basically they WILL be demolised in the first phase. this means all my CC specs can wipe the floor with anything that came close. It worked perfectly in the 'ard boyz tournament, where they sacrificed themselves to Shrike and 10 assault marines, then Dante and 10 assault marines, and then Death Company. Each time they died horribly, and their much costlier destroyers were all killed on the next turn.

Granted, guardians are worthless when nit comes to holding or storming objectives, and they exceed my expectations if they make it past turn 2. But they are very cheap compared to all other Eldar, and I think that makes them pretty valuable, at least with my play style.
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Old 03 Aug 2009, 20:44   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Guardian and 5ed

yeah but that's in a 2500 point game. I find that different units effectiveness changes a lot depending on how many points are on the table. The smaller the points are, the less other stuff there is on the table to distract attention from them. One good volley and you'll notice how squishy they are. In smaller games, guardians are prime targets, but in bigger ones, there's so many other distractions they might actually survive and do what they are there for (sitting around for a victory point)
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