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Transport Help.
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Old 20 Jul 2009, 01:59   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Transport Help.

ok, ive been wondering if i should either get a wave serpent or a falcon as a transport for my fire dragons. plus, is there any way you can convert a falcon into a wave serpent?
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Old 20 Jul 2009, 02:42   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Transport Help.

The falcon and wave Serpent both use some similar pieces, and whilst it is possibly with a bit of converting, I think you'd be better off buying the serpent. As for the dragons, how many are you carrying?

Advantages of Serpent
Cheaper
12 Capacity
Energy Field
Doesn't take up Heavy Support Slot
More Accurate Heavy Weapon

Disadvantages
Only one heavy weapon (without underslung shuriken cannon)
No Holo-fields

Advantages of Falcon
Holo-field accessible
More weapons
Pulse Laser
Cheaper Money wise (I think)

Disadvantages of falcon
More Expensive pts wise
Weapon aren't twin-linked
Takes up a valuable Heavy Support Choice
Many still have old prejudices toward the old "God-Falcons"

With firedragons I'd generally run a squad of 5-6, maybe an exarch with firepike and tank hunters if you must, though I see the exarch as being a bit useless.

If trabsport hunting I'd take a wave serpent with Twin-Linked Eml, Spirit Stones and Underslung Shuriken Cannon. Reason being if the fire dragons blow up a transport (Landraiders especially should be targetted, but other transports too) the wave serpent can put down a blast marker and some S6 shots onto the enemy. When they get ut the will generaly be a bit bunched up, so the blast will get more covered. Plus the blast is a S4 weapon, so you can fire both.

If you are just tank-hunting in general, I'd go a twin-linked bright lance, and spirit stones. That way you can do damage before they get out, or if need be target another vehicle while the dragons hunt the main target. This tactic also works alright if the opponent is running terminators in a Land Raider, though be wary, if you don't blow up the landraider with terminators in it the shooting from the dragons will be on the transport, leaving them open for a charge/heavy flamer/bolter death/death in general.

Fire Dragons are usually used as a kamikaze squad, they are very short ranged and generaly not the most survivable of aspects. Don't use them as your only tank hunting squad.... They usually get one big boom and thats it....
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Old 20 Jul 2009, 03:40   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Transport Help.

the falcon is the same amount of money as the wave serpent. also, in some ways, the wave serpent is more pts than the falcon. for example, a falcon with a bright lance is 10 pts cheaper than a wave serpent with twin-linked bright lance.
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Orks: L0, T1, W0
Current Eldar Standings:
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Old 20 Jul 2009, 04:10   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Transport Help.

But for an effective falcon you usually need holo-fields and at least spirit stones, then you have to buy another weapon..... And if you do buy a brightlance on the falcon you aren't firing the pulse laser as much, which is pointless. And the wave Serpent Brightlance has about double the chances of hitting...

These some ways you bring up are if the two are bare bones, which is honestly not a good way to run them....
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Old 20 Jul 2009, 10:09   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Transport Help.

I tend to run my falcon with dragons:

Holo-fields, spirit stones, scatter laser + 6 dragons inside.


And my serpant with 10 dire avengers:

Spirit stones, TL starcannons + 10 DA's
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Old 23 Jul 2009, 17:55   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Transport Help.

I think it would be helpful to have someone do some math hammer here. I personally suck at math but it would be cool to have the %'s of an enemy scoring a pen between the two skimmers with like a...

1 - Str 10 gun
2 - Str 9 gun
3 - Str 8 gun
4 - Melta gun
5 - Str 7 gun

I know there are some math hammer eldar out there! ;D

Granted the choice isn't just based on this alone however It would definatly help.
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Old 23 Jul 2009, 21:58   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Transport Help.

bah... mathhammer... doesn't work. too many factors unrelated to dice probability.

first off... The Falcon is a gunship, not a transport. Unless you are throwing something extremely sick in there like Jainey-and-the-banshees or 6 stocked up Harlequins it is better off sitting and shooting. Not a transport.

ahhh... shooting....

Twin linked brightlance is far cooler than a pulselaser if you are wanting some heavy-hitter stuff that you can actually rely on to hit. The twin Linked BL can still fire while moving, while the falcon has to stay still to take advantage of its second weapon. Staying still means getting whacked in your back armor by some dumb nob's powerclaw. Dead tank.

As far as I know both models cost about the same financially. Pointswise, the Wave Serp has an energy field, while the Falcon has the holo field as an option (making it even more expensive than its cousin than it is already). Both defenses are decent, but the Serpent comes with it while you have to buy your defense on the Falcon.

Conversion? Turning a falcon into a Serpent (the ghetto way): take off the turret gunner and cockpit (knife works), leaving just the turret with no gunner. attach the guns you want. use spare plastic slabs to fill out the turret. use more plastic slabs or card to extend the backhatch about 1 1/2" further than the one on the serpent to represent the extra crew area. find some toothpicks or nails or whatever to use as the force-field 'veins' around the front hemisphere. (mine lost their veins due to breakage, so I put on some toothpicks and painted them shiney gold with yellow highlights on the tip so they wouldn't draw attention from anal modellers)

They are almost the same tank, modelwise. Gamewise, the Serpent is IMO now far superior to the Falcon because of the vehicle movement/firing rules. I would rather have twin link Brightlance than two iffy shots with a similar weapon without lance. With a Falcon, I get the feeling I am paying a lot of points for a weapon that I may not even use (holofields cause a lot of shaken/stunned results and you usually spend the whole game just moving around and soaking up shots).

On the Falcon's side, it can carry Harlequins, and the holofield is better defense than the Force field on the Serpent, but not by much. Both are random and iffy. If you use a Falcon any more, it should probably be as a gunship, pivoting in place with all three guns blazing (yes get the shuricannon in the hull)... not a transport. Serpents give your army a lot more flexibility for maneuver, and can fight just as hard if not harder in a tank shootout because of their twin-linky goodness.


baaah... why can't they let us give Holofields to our Serpents... Then we could finally be happy... meh... oh well.
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Old 24 Jul 2009, 16:32   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Transport Help.

Well my main problem with just using a Falcon as a gun ship is for all the points it ends up costing you it's still just BS 3. Part of the reason it's point cost is higher is due to it having the ability to transport, It's speed, and It's pricey yet good upgrades. However the Transport abilites and speed aren't being used if it's just sitting and shooting... however they are still abilities it has so points get wasted. I hope that makes sense?

If you're going for ranged tank hunting I feel a BL/EML Wraithlord is a better choice for the points (cheaper and BS4). If you are hunting troops, I think the massed shot's of the War Walkers are a much better buy. As far as a Transport goes the Wave Serpent is cheaper, doesn't take up a FOC slot and does a great job at a higher transport capacity. Also after it's done transporting, it's main gun has a much better chance at hitting due to Twin Linked.

Can you tell I'm not a huge fan of Falcon's in 5th? I personally use Wave Serpents for my Dragon's. That's not to say a Falcon can't get the job done... I just prefer Serpents.

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Old 24 Jul 2009, 20:18   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Transport Help.

Well there is a possibility of using it as a limo for a farseer with any of the powers that don't need LOS. Keep him nice and safe, and be able to sit and shoot every turn with all the big guns (Guide plus Doom plus Stones along with a pulse, scatterlaser, and shricannon in a holo-Falcon = lots of killy deathy goodness, a fairly safe HQ character in a support role, and a tank that is very hard to bring down unless charged).

Still I think the Serpent is superior for its points, and doesn't give you the dilemma of either using all your weapons or moving into transport position. You can't do both, and I personally hate having a unit on the field that comes with a dilemma. I don't want to use it unless I am sure how I want it used. The Falcon is very expensive comparatively, good at both roles, but can really only perform one of them once you commit it, leaving a lot of wasted points on unused weapons or unused transport capability. I guess you could use it for an early-game Fire Dragon drop-and-pop move, and then sit around blazing away in a gunship role so you can take advantage of both the gun platform and the transport role. It just costs so many points.
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Old 25 Jul 2009, 17:37   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Transport Help.

Right, you asked for the Mathhammer, so here it comes:

Falcon:

Strength 10:
1 Hit
0.666 Penetrate
A further 0.333 destroy.

So thats 0.222 destroyed.

Strength 9:
1 Hit
0.5 Penetrate
0.333 Destroy

So that's 0.166 destroyed.

Strength 8:
1 Hit
0.333 Penetrate
0.333 Destroy

So that's 0.111 destroyed.

Strength 7:
1 Hit
0.166 Penetrate
0.333 Destroy

So that's 0.055 destroyed.

Melta at half range:

1 Hit.
Requires 5 on 2 dice to penetrate - 0.833 Penetrate, 0.0833 Glance.

That's 0.43055 Destroyed

[hr]

Wave Serpent:
Due to the special rule that the Wave Serpent has, Strength 10, 9, 8 and Melta are all the same.

Strength 10, 9, 8 and Melta:
1 Hit
0.333 Penetrate
0.333 Destroy

So that's 0.111 destroyed.

Strength 7:
1 Hit
0.166 Penetrate
0.333 Destroy

So that's 0.0833 Destroyed.

[hr]

Hope this helps, I think you can see that the Wave Serpent is much more survivable than the Vanilla (basic) Falcon. However, the Falcon is made much more survivable when you encorporate Holo-Fields.
But considering that for x points you get 12 transport slots with the Wave Serpent. Then for 1.66x points you geet half as many spaces.
Thanks.

- LordZanuu

PS: Edited for clarity.
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