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How do you deal with high armour targets
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Old 23 Jun 2009, 06:03   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default How do you deal with high armour targets

Hey guys,

I've played a few 2000 pts recently and I've found that Eldar are somewhat weak against AV 13 and 14. Causing me to take Bright Lances on my Wave Serpents (I run a Saim-Hann/mech. list usually).

I've been having a hell of a tough time with Soul Grinders, Land Raiders, Predators, etc. and I just know soon enough against Imperial Guard.

I'm wondering what are your strategies against enemy tanks? And what tips you guys can give me?

I'm a fan of swooping hawks, but I find them to be a one trick pony especially when used as tank hunters. Since most of my enemies place them deep in their own deployment, deep striking is a bad idea, or if they do manage to take out one tank, they're usually fragged by the rest of the army lying in wait.
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Old 23 Jun 2009, 06:45   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: How do you deal with high armour targets

Fire Dragons. 'Nuff said.

Actually, considering delivery system would be important. That many meltas would be more reliable than most things we have. Everything else has like a 33% chance on AV 12 glance(or was it pen.?) because of our Lance weapons and EMLs. Str 8+ 2D6 is better than anything else we can manage.

Swooping Hawks are harder because you have to get 18" away the turn before (wihtout them realizing the gig and nuking your fragile Eldar and/or moving the vehicle out of range). They are viable though (but I can't remember the results for different rolls) and in a higher PV game with support and backup tank hunters.

So I'd say Fire Dragons with a delivery system (either Falcon or Wave Serpent) and Swooping Hawks would be a good bet. Remember though, Eldar have frag and agile down, but when combined you get fragile .
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Old 23 Jun 2009, 07:45   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: How do you deal with high armour targets

In 1750 I usually run 2 twin-linked bright lances, and it usually does the trick. I don't use fire dragons too much, they end up being isolated and being destroyed. I also try and get rear/side armour, using warp spiders. Whilst they aren't the best at destroying vehicles, they can cripple a few. I mean what use is a weaponless, imobilised whirlwind or predator? I also usually have a witchblade or two hanging around for busting up some walkers.

Look at these options as tank hunters;

Farseer- Witch blade or singing spear, and don't forget about eldritch storm. Whilst it doesn't do the huge damage, it can spin vehicles, and reveal rear armour.

Autarch- mainly with jump pack and fusion gun. You can do quick hit and run attacks against high armour vehicles, but keeping him with a squad is advised.... alaone he dies way too easily.

Avatar- Slow, but once in range he can dish out hurt, as well as take a few hits.

Dragons- Good, but once they do their job they are as good as dead.

Wraithguard- Just as good as dragons IMHO, and a lot tougher. They will survive a lot more.

Harlequins- fusion pistols and kisses can damage tanks, but these gys are btter off going after juicier targets.

Scorpions- Exarch armed ith biting blade against a vehicle that didnt move. S8 fun for everyone!

Jetbikes- or specificaly the warlock with witchblade. Assaults can be very fun...

Storm Guardians- 2 less likely to hit fusion guns, but they are cheaper and there are more wounds. Wth a warlock they can do a little more, but not huge amounts.

Other wise I'd just take a few brightlances on your wave serpents, as well as on wraithlords. BS 3 is too unreliable, though guiding them makes them hit more.

Hope I was of help....
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Old 23 Jun 2009, 08:36   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: How do you deal with high armour targets

Wow...

Actually, thanks Shakey, that was pretty helpful! Good rundown of most of the units available to Eldar.

I tried the Autarch as a tank busting machine today. Managed to take off a hang/gun off the soul grinder. Damn poor rolling I think.

When I field Storm Guardians, I prefer using flamers. I get much more wounds on any troop. Rather then shooting at BS3.

I occasionally field the standard 6 dragons in falcon. But more often then not, I find myself using those 96pts for other things (like longer ranged TL-Bright Lances on my wave serpents that are more then just one turn wonders)

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Old 23 Jun 2009, 12:19   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: How do you deal with high armour targets

In my book, Brightlances are very overrated, their low rate of fire, paired with the poor BS of most Eldar units makes it an unreliable choice.

In my book anti-armour falls into three categories:
- low armour all round (Rhino)
- High armour low back
- High armour all round

As mentioned above, Fire Dragons will take care of all of these senarios for you, but they are why likely to perish in the process (due to counter-charge). At the same time they have a hard time finding a secondary usage.

I.m.h.o. The only way for Eldars to reliably and consistently hunt armour (of any kind) is by a mixture of abilities. Actually its a four step rocket.

1. Add high power/high rate of fire weapons to your units.
Take a look at the codex, at contemplate just how many Shuriken Cannons and Scatter Lasers you can add, for a bargain. Their strength/rate of fire/range will melt low armour in a second.

2. Add the punch
Add Singing Spears. Why? It is far cheaper than Brightlances, is almost as powerfull and the models equipping them are often far better Shooters, than the vehicles that can equip Brightlances. Furthermore, you can spead this weapon to a number of units, Guardians, Wraithwall, Jetbikes, Counsils, you are not putting all your AT in one basket. Finally in CC - this weapon will rip all those AV14 front/AV10 back tanks, to bits.

3. Add mobility
The Singing Spear only have one drawback - short range. Thankfully we have all those jetbikes to take care of this. A jetbiking Singing Spear is just as easy to put in fire-range, as a Fire Dragon, but it is FAR easier to get it out of harms way after the attack - he lives to fight another day (or turn...).
Furthermore the mobilty let you coordinate you attacks better. Currently I have 7 spears in my list - if I face a Land Raider, I can coordinate an attack the hammer the tank with all 7 spears at once - Believe me, it will melt like butter in the sun.

4. Augment your weapons
The above weapons are all very easy to enhance, with off-the-shelf Eldar powers. But if you face many tanks it is worth to investing in Eldritch Storm. Spin those tanks around and let a hail of laser/cannons rip them to shreds.

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Old 23 Jun 2009, 16:55   #6 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: How do you deal with high armour targets

Hmm... good point about the singing spears.

I don't use them often enough because I'm not normally fielding Farseers or Warlocks. Guess I should give that a try.

Getting behind tanks I find to be really difficult even with the fast units. A smart enemy will know right away what you're planning and make it harder for you to do it. Or he will set up in a way to quickly counter charge you.

Jetbikes, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Shining Spears, and maybe one or two others as a lot of points to go tank hunting. Fortunately, it's the kind of army I field, and I have options to do it with a lot.

A follow-up question then is how do you manage to position models to fire at the rear? And how you do you deal with Soul-Grinders?
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Old 23 Jun 2009, 17:02   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: How do you deal with high armour targets

Here's something
It explains why I didn't go in for Bright Lances and some other things we can try...

In my last game I did use my Witchblades as very effective can-openers (forgot about that :funny and my opponent was very surprised when I assaulted his Hammerheads >.

Deepstriking, Outflanking, or just plain moving fast can get you around the rear armor. Eldritch Storm has been mentioned but I've never tried it.

Soul Grinders are tricky though, I haven't' fought one yet...
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Old 23 Jun 2009, 17:07   #8 (permalink)
Zen
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Default Re: How do you deal with high armour targets

Soulgrinders; tough bastards. As many have said and adding my own experience, Bright Lances and Fusion Gun/Pistol will work fine against them. Probably the last thing you wanna do against them is CC but I'm quite confident especially when Eldar has a wicked CC-Tank-Busting Weapon; Witch Blade and Singing Spear.

But then again, I'm more of a Straightforward kind of player e.g. I always aim for the Front AV.
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Old 23 Jun 2009, 17:11   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: How do you deal with high armour targets

Haven't faced a soul grinder myself either.

I've found it quite hard to get around to the rear of any opponent unless you have some cover. For instance, you have War Walkers on the left, while your Vypers are flanking to the right. Your opponent is now faced with the impossible choice of choosing which unit to turn towards, or to simply leave side armor facing both.

Outside that circumstance, I've found most opponents quite capable of making it far more difficult than it's worth to get behind them.

Even so, if you can get around behind an enemy vehicle in the first place, you're probably better off using a Dragon Wagon, Wraithguard, etc. and letting your Vypers handle the further-off targets.

All IMO, of course.
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Old 23 Jun 2009, 18:13   #10 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: How do you deal with high armour targets

I have a Daemon friend who loves to field two Soul Grinders, he does have a third though... occasionally he plays with around 3 or 4 MC guys too. It's what spurred me into posting this. The problem with Daemons is that even with all the speed Eldar have, it's hard to adjust and form a proper battle line while also ensuring the right unit match-ups when they're deep striking all over the place.

To date I have played three games when my opponent has fielded two soul grinders. And to date, the worst I've done is take off a weapon, ONCE.

I've turned over to BL. But I agree with some of you, they're still very unreliable since they're only one shot. 4+ re-roll is nice, but I still fail more often then not just to hit. The other times, it's usually stunned.

I'm going to try using singing spears and witchblades more often. See what results that get me. Perhaps a very minimal sized Swooping Hawk unit as well. Give them another chance.

My approach is more like Zenai's though. I'm a straightforward, attack them head on kind of guy. I suppose that's why I have so many ties, and not enough wins. I end up swapping unit for unit.
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