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Feasibility of Taking Objectives
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Old 22 Jun 2009, 19:15   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Feasibility of Taking Objectives

As my sidebar indicates, I do not play Eldar, but I do own some. I got them simply because the models and general army 'style' was interesting. The main problem with my taste compared o the game is that I own many guardians, not avengers. I also am not a fan of aspects.

Recently my friend who collects IG for the same reasons suggested we have a match. Now you guys in the field, do guardians ever end up succeeding in a 'take and hold' kind of objective match? It would be a small game (500 points) and I have a falcon to his 0 vehicles.
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Old 22 Jun 2009, 20:44   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Feasibility of Taking Objectives

Guardians are not "great" for holding objectives. But they can fit the bill if used properly. Let's look at some ideas:

Guardian Overview
Guardians have a poor save, low toughness and an average BS/WS. This makes them inherently bad in prolonged firefights. Thankfully, though, they have a few things on their side. Firstly, they carry assault-style Bolters. Secondly, they have weapons platforms which transform heavy weapons into assault weapons. Thirdly, they are relatively mobile because of the above two points and their possession of Fleet.

So Guardians may lack some in terms of outright durability, but you can use them to capture objectives or to hold objectives in cover.

Guardian set-ups
Guardians vary in basically three areas (and Storm Guardians are a different story altogether): Warlocks, Heavy Weapons, Size.

Warlocks
Taking a Warlock is an iffy proposition. For the cost of a decent Warlock, you can field almost four extra Guardians. Which is more effective? Well that's really your call. But I think that if you've got limited numbers (i.e. you're putting them in Wave Serpents), then Warlocks are great. But otherwise, they might not be worthwhile.

A couple Warlock upgrades really make Guardian squads stand out. These are: Conceal, Destructor, and Embolden. Conceal makes Guardian squads more durable to shooting...which is important against almost everyone since their save is virtually non existent. Destructor augments their already decent shooting capacity and makes drop-and-popping out of Wave Serpents very decent. Embolden makes the Guardians more immune to casualties. In large squads which are going to squat on objectives, you'll probably find Conceal and Embolden the better choices.

Heavy Weapons
A lot has been said on this before. Basically, it comes down to this. Bright Lances and EML's sound really good. But they're really expensive and tend not to hit well. Shuriken Cannons do really well against GEQ style infantry. Starcannons do well against MEQ style infrantry. Scatter Lasers are somewhere in the middle. Personally, I'll take the Scatter Laser almost every time because it's ROF is just superior and you can count on neither the ShuCannon or Starcannon ever hitting 4 times in one turn.

Size
With Guardians, sometimes size does matter. If you're putting them in Wave Serpents, you simply must run squads of 12. If you're footslogging, units of 15-20 might be in order...especially if you're camping on objectives.

[hr]
Final thoughts. I think you need to consider that your Guardians can make good last minute attacks against objectives. They've got a 13+" threat range. So you can camp one unit on your objective and then move up to make a engame move-fire/fleet-assault on the objective to contest theirs. Unfortunately, Guardians simply aren't up to task when it comes to single-handedly storming objectives. While they have their place in Eldar armies, they don't make really great solo units. They really like to be supported by Aspect Warriors or Farseers.

Cheers,
Em
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Old 23 Jun 2009, 13:13   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Feasibility of Taking Objectives

Hey, thanks Emlyn. The one resulting question is about the transports. I assumed that Guardians couldn't embark on a transport because of that weapons platform. Can they?
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Old 23 Jun 2009, 13:45   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Feasibility of Taking Objectives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sau1us
The one resulting question is about the transports. I assumed that Guardians couldn't embark on a transport because of that weapons platform. Can they?
The weapons platform is simply a marker. It no longer counts as anything than an on-table designation of which weapon the models have. In fact, you even measure shooting from the crew not the weapon.
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Old 24 Jun 2009, 22:39   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Feasibility of Taking Objectives

I believe that Guardians have two weaknesses, and only one strength. The most obvious weakness is their crummy save. Almost every time one is hit by almost anything, it's just dead. Even a squad of 20 can be annihilated in a single turn by concentrated fire from a couple of squads of whatever. The Warlock is the second problem, because of his expense, and the fact that his two most useful powers cannot overlap. You end up with either a squad that doesn't get saves, or a squad that is running away. It's deceptive to think that adding a Warlock greatly ensures their staying power, but in my experience, which ever power (Conceal or Embolden) they take, they end up being decimated for not having the other power. Their guns are okay, not great (the range is prohibitive), but they do get essentially an assault capable heavy weapon to go along with their seldom used catapults, and 10+ wounds to protect it. That's their only strength in my opinion.

Well, they are cheap (not compared to the superior Guard and Ork basic infantry, but at least compared to ours), and in a bigger battle where there may be far more high priority targets for the badguys to shoot at, they often go unnoticed, and survive the battle to grab an objective in the last couple of turns.

Normally, I keep them back out of harms way, just so they can last utill the end-game turns where they can start advancing on an objective, and hopefully manage to survive the couple of turns where they will actually be a priority target, since there won't be as much stuff left on the board to shoot at them.

Now I don't know about a 500 point game, I usually use mine in a 1500 point army just as an afterthought squad of 10 with a missile launcher or scatter laser (kept well in the back), just because they can move to score late in the game and I can let all my fast attackers and elites and such do the actual work. They won't last long sitting on objectives, but they will last a couple of turns when there isn't so much stuff left to shoot at them. But if that's what you've got, hey use'em, right?

I am curious what other kinds of stuff you have in your collection that can give your army some more survivability and hitting power.
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Old 25 Jun 2009, 13:09   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Feasibility of Taking Objectives

I haven't nailed down a proper list or anything. I have that guardian squad, a warlock, farseer, falcon and pathfinders. Nothing big. I mean right now the falcon isn't really serving a transport role... Banshees might be nice / something that can go into cc.
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Old 27 Jun 2009, 18:37   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Feasibility of Taking Objectives

Well, even though you're not a fan of aspects I suggest Dire Avengers. They can put out some good dakka and it gets upped when you get the Extra Shuriken Catapult for the Exarch and add Bladestorm. The downside to Bladestorm is that they can't fire in the next shooting phase but they should probably be packed up in their Wave Serpent by then . Add said Farseer and it gets killy fast.

I like the idea of Guardians and my opponents have just kind of ignored them in my games (you would too if a smaller unit just shredded your 12 Fire Warriors with like 40 shots >) so they lasted... but they didn't do much.

Though in all fairness I was being really defensive because I was facing 2 Hammerheads and a Hive Tyrant, so they didn't come out of their transport until it got blown up.

Back on topic (not reminiscing about past games :) I strongly recommend you get a Wave Serpent. If you get Banshees they will be sluaghtered on foot, as most opponents have a highly rational fear of 5 WS4/5 power weapons with multiple attacks charging them and Banshees are almost as mushy as Fire Warriors. Actually they are (in shooting terms) IIRC. If you don't get Banshees then your squishy Guardians can chill in the transport.
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Old 02 Jul 2009, 22:19   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Feasibility of Taking Objectives

Hey bud, just looked at your rundown of what figs you have, here's my idea for a decent army in 500 points without having to buy more figs:

Farseer (attach to Rangers), Fortune: 85 points
Warlock (attach to Guardians), Conceal: 40 pts
Falcon, Shuricannon in turret, Holofields: 155 points
Guardians (10 plus scatter laser platform or Missile platform): 95 or 100 points
Rangers (5 plus pathfinder upgrade): 120 points

you got 5 points left if you give the Guardians the scatterlaser, so if your farseer or warlorck wants a spear you can tack that on too.

Its very simple, use the Rangers with the Fortune power to hold out in some cover while the Falcon does its thing just roaming around shooting its pulse laser at the most dangerous targets. The Guardians and Warlock hang in the back taking potshots with the Missile or Scatter (whichever you prefer, they both have good range).

Now, if you do want some assault troops, I reccomend a simple squad of Howling Banshees for a game this small. 80 points will get you 5 of them. You can stick 'em in the back of your Falcon, but to make up the points you'll have to lose its holo-fields (which is okay since it will now be getting cover saves moving quick to drop off rather than moving slow for max firepower). Additionally, you can free up the rest of the points by changing your Farseer to cast 'Doom' instead of fortune (very handy with S3 powerweapons, keep him with the banshees), get rid of the 'pathfinders' upgrade, turn the Guardian weapon into a shuricannon, and the Warlock power to embolden.... here's a rundown:

Now you have a few more models on the table at the expense of some interchangeable upgrades.

1 Farseer, doom: 80
5 Banshees : 80
5 Rangers : 95
10 Guardians + Warlock, Embolden, Shuricannon : 120
1 Falcon, shuricannon : 120

again you have 5 points left for a singing spear upgrade if you want it, or to change the warlock power to destructor if you are feeling destructive, or turn the Farseer power back to Fortune (but I do recommend Doom used with the Banshees if you are getting some of them). With this list it is kind of important to make sure the Guardian squad has some cover, and that you use your Falcon as a transport early on against the most dangerous target. Don't worry about shooting with it, just move as fast as you can to get the Banshees+Farseer where you want them to do the most damage. After that it can loll around shooting its Pulse laser.
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Old 03 Jul 2009, 12:53   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Feasibility of Taking Objectives

Thanks for the list Guitardian. I still need to paint/assemble some of them yet (Falcon, wep platform), so I will clip them on loosely to try some different configs.

So the Seer with the rangers, if they get shot at, I assign wounds normally? What I am worried about is some rule where adding a Farseer, without a bonus to cover saves, ruins the saves for the rangers she is attached to. I cant imagine the rangers would be too happy having this random psyker pop up wave hello while they are trying to hide.

In terms of objectives I would be running the guardians while concealed to the objective, while pathfinders sit on another perhaps. Yea, should be fun, not sure if it will merit a battle report, but the game most likely won't happen for a while, we are both slow painters who think playing a game with grey models is ridiculous.
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Old 04 Jul 2009, 03:58   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Feasibility of Taking Objectives

I think the Pathfinders would still get their 2+ cover, just the Farseer wouldn't benefit.

And good luck . I've always liked the idea of Guardians but I love Dire Avengers sooo much. I've killed (on average) about 1 enemy squad per turn with Bladestorm and I'm loath to give that kind of hitting power up.
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