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Best Anti-Eldar Army
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Old 26 May 2009, 05:35   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Best Anti-Eldar Army

For all of you Eldar veterans out there: which army gives you the most trouble? Or perhaps, counters the strengths/exploits the weaknesses of the Eldar army? You can include specific subtypes of armies in your answers.

The Eldar army has been described to me as a "glass hammer"... agile yet fragile, using unsurpassed mobility for precision application of force and firepower. Which army/type of army can effectively shatter this glass hammer?

I've heard that Orks are typically a tough draw for Eldar. Also, Tau appear to be a potentially difficult foe for Eldar, being able to (nearly) match Eldar in speed and having long-range firepower able to take down skimmers, bikes, and the like. What do you guys think?
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Old 26 May 2009, 07:57   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Best Anti-Eldar Army

All armies can do wel against Eldar, and it depends on the Eldar army buid. Skimmer heavy eldar are hard to beat, but maxing up on mid-high strength multi shot weapons (lootas, autocanons) can down the vehicles. High toughness armies can cause issues, but the eldar ary is very adaptable. If you want to irritate an eldar player, the easiest wa is not to play them. Eldar I find don't have any particular race that excells against them, you just need to find a weakness in the list, exploit it and rip it open.
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Old 26 May 2009, 08:11   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Best Anti-Eldar Army

Eldars are very adaptable, but their primary strength that sets them apart from other armies is speed. Unless you play a very specific kind of Eldar-army (wraithwall), you will more or less be dependant on your speed to survive.
Any army that can nullify this advantage have a very good chance at beating Eldars. Now thank heaven, only a few armies can do that and still deliver the needed punch. From the top of my head I can only think of Ravenwing. It is however one of the hardest armies I've ever played against. They have the speed to keep up with our fastest builds, and the power to punch holes in our hardest defences.
Of cause some specific builds are also very hard to deal with, but they are almost always the product of some kind of rule-exploit: Double Noobz-biker cheese or Drop Pod Spam etc. But still, in my book Ravenwing is still the army that by nature, is most suited to drop an Eldar army.
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Old 26 May 2009, 12:04   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Best Anti-Eldar Army

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaghamama
For all of you Eldar veterans out there: which army gives you the most trouble? Or perhaps, counters the strengths/exploits the weaknesses of the Eldar army? You can include specific subtypes of armies in your answers.

The Eldar army has been described to me as a "glass hammer"... agile yet fragile, using unsurpassed mobility for precision application of force and firepower. Which army/type of army can effectively shatter this glass hammer?

I've heard that Orks are typically a tough draw for Eldar. Also, Tau appear to be a potentially difficult foe for Eldar, being able to (nearly) match Eldar in speed and having long-range firepower able to take down skimmers, bikes, and the like. What do you guys think?
That's extremely difficult to pin-point an answer for that question.

My cousin played Eldar and only Eldar. When I see him, I play him with Tyranids, Tau, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Tau, Witch Hunters, Daemon Hunters, and even old armies that don't exist anymore (Genestealer Cult, Kroot). I win 1 out of 42 games.

The Eldar have so many specialized units, and even more play styles that it's virtually impossible to make a good "anti-Eldar" list. If you fight me, you'll find Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent and Harlequins destroying anything you so foolishly move cautiously forward through cover while my Autarch and Fire Prisms are hitting you in the sides... and then Eldar Pathfinders and Dire Avengers giving your fast-moving infantry a lot of trouble, but only sometimes. Terrain will change the overall strategy completely, but the idea is like a boa constrictor. Every time you breath in, I squeeze a little tighter.

So you make a long-ranged mobile army like Tau so that you can compete with the Fire Prisms, and you take a lot of moderate firepower to take out 4+ armored Aspect Warriors and infantry. The next time you play Eldar, you might be faced up against my cousin's Elati Eldar. Now you're long range is useless as Vibro Cannons are cutting straight through you with no LOS needed. Two Wave Serpents are moving straight up the center and unloading 12 Fire Dragons while Autarch Adino is attacking your basic infantry. Then the Swooping Hawks aren't even touching the ground long enough for you to shoot at them.

While I squeeze your army of life, my cousin cuts you through the middle. So now you rearrange your army. The next time you face Eldar, you might have 20 Wraithguard slowly advancing towards you a la Necron-style, with 3 Wraithlord Monstrous Creatures taking most everything you have as they accurately place two long-ranged weapons into your tanks. The same player might take 5 units of 5 Eldar Pathfinders and just make things all the more difficult (as you are prepared to go against larger units rather than numerous smaller ones).

The next time you play Eldar, you might be facing 3 Falcons each loaded with Howling Banshees/Harlequins and 3 units of Eldar Guardian Jetbikes, each with a Shuriken Cannon, all assisted by a Farseer and 3 Warlocks on a Jetbike for a very small but highly mobile force that concentrates all the units on one particular side and fights you in a sweeping flank attack with the whole army.


If anyone told me they came up with an anti-Eldar list, I'd laugh at them and scoff the list.
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If the Eldar see battle as a symphony,
Then the Elati have mastered a solo piece,
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Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 26 May 2009, 13:33   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Best Anti-Eldar Army

Eldar are very adaptable and can be adaoted to destroy any foe. The only true anti-eldar army is another eldar army.
If you know your oponents eldar army then you can begin to counter it by changing your list- this is the same with all armies.
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Old 26 May 2009, 21:23   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Best Anti-Eldar Army

Waaaghamama,

Due to the fact that Eldar Armies are (as pointed out above) extremely flexible, and their composition largely unpredictable, the best Anti-Eldar army has always been: Any well played, well balanced army.
The Eldar List will punish any sort of 'cheese' that you come up with with with a deluge of speed and firepower. A Nid-Zilla or All-Terminator list, or an Armored company will find itself outmaneuvered. An all Assault Army will find it's component parts isolated and destroyed, and all shooting army will find it's field of fire minimized, and it will get hit on the worst possible flank with assault troops.
A fully balanced list that is used in the spirit of combined arms can outplay any Eldar list by applying pressure to the weakness of the eldar build, and minimizing it's strength.

Lets use the old yardstick of the space marines as an example:
Quote:
-Around 2K, I don't have my SM Codex Handy, so points are estimated with a ?
HQ:
1) Chapter Master (Relic Blade, Artificer Armor, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher) - 200?
2) Librarian (Codicier) - 150?

TROOPS:
1) 10 x Tactical Marine (Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Sgt: Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs) - 200?
-Razorback (Lascannon, Twin Plasmaguns) - 75?
2) 10 x Tactical Marine (Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Sgt: Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs) - 200?
-Razorback (Lascannon, Twin Plasmaguns) - 75?
3) 10 x Tactical Marine (Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Sgt: Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs) - 200?
-Razorback (Lascannon, Twin Plasmaguns) - 75?
4) 10 x Tactical Marine (Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Sgt: Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs) - 200?
-Razorback (Lascannon, Twin Plasmaguns) - 75?
5) 10 x Tactical Marine (Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Sgt: Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs) - 200?
-Razorback (Lascannon, Twin Plasmaguns) - 75?
6) 10 x Tactical Marine (Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Sgt: Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs) - 200?
-Razorback (Lascannon, Twin Plasmaguns) - 75?
This list is all HQs, and Troops with no Elites, Fast Attack, or Heavy Support. It is a well balanced list that relies on sheer numbers and redundancy. Massed marines led by the Librarian and Master can perform adequately in assault against Eldar non-assault specialists. (The Libby also makes Psuchic attack hard on the Eldar) Assault Specialists face template death. Resilient units face S7 AP2 death. Transports face lascannons and plasma death. In the face of Eldar assault troops the Marine player can opt to use combat tactics to flee out of charge range if shot at, and to attempt to flee close combat if not.

While this is not at all an Anti-Eldar list (It would perform admirably against anyone if well played), it is the kind of well balanced list that and Eldar player will find challenging.

I hope that helps,
Ged
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Old 26 May 2009, 23:00   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Best Anti-Eldar Army

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged of Paragon
Waaaghamama,

Due to the fact that Eldar Armies are (as pointed out above) extremely flexible, and their composition largely unpredictable, the best Anti-Eldar army has always been: Any well played, well balanced army.
The Eldar List will punish any sort of 'cheese' that you come up with with with a deluge of speed and firepower. A Nid-Zilla or All-Terminator list, or an Armored company will find itself outmaneuvered. An all Assault Army will find it's component parts isolated and destroyed, and all shooting army will find it's field of fire minimized, and it will get hit on the worst possible flank with assault troops.
A fully balanced list that is used in the spirit of combined arms can outplay any Eldar list by applying pressure to the weakness of the eldar build, and minimizing it's strength.

Lets use the old yardstick of the space marines as an example:
Quote:
-Around 2K, I don't have my SM Codex Handy, so points are estimated with a ?
HQ:
1) Chapter Master (Relic Blade, Artificer Armor, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher) - 200?
2) Librarian (Codicier) - 150?

TROOPS:
1) 10 x Tactical Marine (Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Sgt: Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs) - 200?
-Razorback (Lascannon, Twin Plasmaguns) - 75?
2) 10 x Tactical Marine (Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Sgt: Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs) - 200?
-Razorback (Lascannon, Twin Plasmaguns) - 75?
3) 10 x Tactical Marine (Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Sgt: Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs) - 200?
-Razorback (Lascannon, Twin Plasmaguns) - 75?
4) 10 x Tactical Marine (Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Sgt: Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs) - 200?
-Razorback (Lascannon, Twin Plasmaguns) - 75?
5) 10 x Tactical Marine (Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Sgt: Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs) - 200?
-Razorback (Lascannon, Twin Plasmaguns) - 75?
6) 10 x Tactical Marine (Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Sgt: Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs) - 200?
-Razorback (Lascannon, Twin Plasmaguns) - 75?
This list is all HQs, and Troops with no Elites, Fast Attack, or Heavy Support. It is a well balanced list that relies on sheer numbers and redundancy. Massed marines led by the Librarian and Master can perform adequately in assault against Eldar non-assault specialists. (The Libby also makes Psuchic attack hard on the Eldar) Assault Specialists face template death. Resilient units face S7 AP2 death. Transports face lascannons and plasma death. In the face of Eldar assault troops the Marine player can opt to use combat tactics to flee out of charge range if shot at, and to attempt to flee close combat if not.

While this is not at all an Anti-Eldar list (It would perform admirably against anyone if well played), it is the kind of well balanced list that and Eldar player will find challenging.

I hope that helps,
Ged
Congesting 6 Razorbacks in a 1550 army list? Albeit, with all lascannons. Hmm...

I found a 1,000-point army somewhat challenging to take on. His list included this, plus what I'd add for 550:

HQ – Farseer w/Spirit Stones, Doom, Guide

TROOPS – Dire Avengers
9 Dire Avengers
1 Exarch
Wave Serpent
Twin-linked Eldar Missile Launchers, Shuriken Cannon

TROOPS – Guardian Defenders
10 Guardians w/1 Eldar Missile Launcher

TROOPS – Eldar Pathfinders
10 Pathfinders

FAST ATTACK – Shining Spears
3 Shining Spears

FAST ATTACK – Shining Spears
6 Shining Spears

HEAVY SUPPORT – Wraithlord
Eldar Missile Launcher and Bright Lance

HEAVY SUPPORT – 3 War Walkers
2 Scatter Lasers each

HEAVY SUPPORT – Falcon
Shuriken Cannon, Bright Lance


The issue with Razorbacks, while they are flexible and powerful, have a front and side armor of 11. Any S6 weapons can get a penetrating hit, and this army carries a lot of S6 weapons. The Eldar Pathfinders can even score penetrating hits on the Razorbacks.

If I saw a redundant army filled with transports such as that, I'd play very defensively, forcing you out of any cover to fight me effectively and bring you to the open. I'd go for Razorbacks to make easy kill points and force you to foot-slog. If it's objective-based, it's harder, but I can turbo-boost Shining Spears to contest objectives at the end. I'd hold them all back regardless, waiting for a weaker unit of Marines (reduced to less than 6) trying to get to me and utilize them to finish those Marines off. With them will be Blade-storming Dire Avengers who will charge in if possible. The Farseer will be able to Doom anything that gets even closer than my comfort, and obviously will guide my units to score more hits. (For Eldar Pathfinders, this isn't such a bad option the way snipers work in 5th Edition).

And I'd give you first turn, stealing the initiative if I can.

The only brittle thing in my army are the War Walkers and Guardians. While you're planning on facing a highly mobile army that's trying to use speed and mobility, you're stumped at facing an army that will look like it's standing and shooting in good firing positions, but springs out at you as soon as you get any closer. Every unit in my army is capable of easily taking out a Razorback. Sixty Marines is the thing I'd be concerned about, but I've got a large number of weapons that wound on a 2+.
And of course, any model with a Psychic Hood is always a good thing against Farseers.
__________________
If the Eldar see battle as a symphony,
Then the Elati have mastered a solo piece,
Of every instrument.


Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 26 May 2009, 23:11   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Best Anti-Eldar Army

Other than "Wraithwall" eldar lists, the term "Glass Cannon" can reasonably be used to describe the army. (Of course, there are always exceptions.) That means that any list that has the durability to survive the initial hit, and can turn the game into one of attrition will have a distinct advantage.

For this reason, "horde" type armies can generally be some of the tougher lists to face with a tournament Eldar list. -- Forget it if they are able to tailor their list to your particular force, horde or not. In my opinion, there is no army that can tailor its forces to a given opponent better than Eldar.

I've played both mech, infantry, and hybrid lists. No matter what my list is, a large Ork horde has the ability to do two things. 1. Stick around after I hit it hard. 2. Be on the objectives in numbers large enough that it is difficult to clear them out. My mobility advantage is lessened because the ork horde is everywhere anyway.

The converse is also true. The easiest foe for most Eldar lists will be a slow, low model count list.

The hardest list that I currently face is an ork list with:

5 nob bikerz, warboss on bike, etc.
Big Mek with KFF

4 30 man shoota boyz

3 killa cans

6 (3 squads of 2) deffkoptas

Looted Wagon.


This list has speed (biker nobz / deffkoptas), durability (kans / boyz with kff) and the ability to deal out massive damage (orks). I can easily overcome any one or two of those advantages, but putting them all together makes it very difficult to overcome.
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Old 26 May 2009, 23:41   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Best Anti-Eldar Army

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Marksman
The issue with Razorbacks, while they are flexible and powerful, have a front and side armor of 11. Any S6 weapons can get a penetrating hit, and this army carries a lot of S6 weapons. The Eldar Pathfinders can even score penetrating hits on the Razorbacks.

If I saw a redundant army filled with transports such as that, I'd play very defensively, forcing you out of any cover to fight me effectively and bring you to the open. I'd go for Razorbacks to make easy kill points and force you to foot-slog. If it's objective-based, it's harder, but I can turbo-boost Shining Spears to contest objectives at the end. I'd hold them all back regardless, waiting for a weaker unit of Marines (reduced to less than 6) trying to get to me and utilize them to finish those Marines off. With them will be Blade-storming Dire Avengers who will charge in if possible. The Farseer will be able to Doom anything that gets even closer than my comfort, and obviously will guide my units to score more hits. (For Eldar Pathfinders, this isn't such a bad option the way snipers work in 5th Edition).

And I'd give you first turn, stealing the initiative if I can.

The only brittle thing in my army are the War Walkers and Guardians. While you're planning on facing a highly mobile army that's trying to use speed and mobility, you're stumped at facing an army that will look like it's standing and shooting in good firing positions, but springs out at you as soon as you get any closer. Every unit in my army is capable of easily taking out a Razorback. Sixty Marines is the thing I'd be concerned about, but I've got a large number of weapons that wound on a 2+.
And of course, any model with a Psychic Hood is always a good thing against Farseers.
Colonel Marksman,

What you are describing is an excellent strategy. The purpose of the exercise in my above post is not to say: THIS IS THE ARMY TO KILL THE ELDAR!!! from the mountaintops. It is to give an example of how a balanced list can be used as a counter to most eldar tactica.
your points on the matter of the Razorbacks' armor are valid, as is your thought that they can be quickly removed as a threat. This is again: not the point. If the above army list, or for that matter any balanced army list, is well played; the balanced list will cause us far more harm than any specialized or niche force.
There are balanced formations from every Codex that can be used to cause us problems. While a healthy level of hubris is good in an Eldar player, (We thrive on confidence, and security in the superiority of our troops and weapons) don't let it blind you to the fact that an experienced player with a well-rounded force is and will always be our worst nightmare.

Ged
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Old 27 May 2009, 00:14   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Best Anti-Eldar Army

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged of Paragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Marksman
The issue with Razorbacks, while they are flexible and powerful, have a front and side armor of 11. Any S6 weapons can get a penetrating hit, and this army carries a lot of S6 weapons. The Eldar Pathfinders can even score penetrating hits on the Razorbacks.

If I saw a redundant army filled with transports such as that, I'd play very defensively, forcing you out of any cover to fight me effectively and bring you to the open. I'd go for Razorbacks to make easy kill points and force you to foot-slog. If it's objective-based, it's harder, but I can turbo-boost Shining Spears to contest objectives at the end. I'd hold them all back regardless, waiting for a weaker unit of Marines (reduced to less than 6) trying to get to me and utilize them to finish those Marines off. With them will be Blade-storming Dire Avengers who will charge in if possible. The Farseer will be able to Doom anything that gets even closer than my comfort, and obviously will guide my units to score more hits. (For Eldar Pathfinders, this isn't such a bad option the way snipers work in 5th Edition).

And I'd give you first turn, stealing the initiative if I can.

The only brittle thing in my army are the War Walkers and Guardians. While you're planning on facing a highly mobile army that's trying to use speed and mobility, you're stumped at facing an army that will look like it's standing and shooting in good firing positions, but springs out at you as soon as you get any closer. Every unit in my army is capable of easily taking out a Razorback. Sixty Marines is the thing I'd be concerned about, but I've got a large number of weapons that wound on a 2+.
And of course, any model with a Psychic Hood is always a good thing against Farseers.
Colonel Marksman,

What you are describing is an excellent strategy. The purpose of the exercise in my above post is not to say: THIS IS THE ARMY TO KILL THE ELDAR!!! from the mountaintops. It is to give an example of how a balanced list can be used as a counter to most eldar tactica.
your points on the matter of the Razorbacks' armor are valid, as is your thought that they can be quickly removed as a threat. This is again: not the point. If the above army list, or for that matter any balanced army list, is well played; the balanced list will cause us far more harm than any specialized or niche force.
There are balanced formations from every Codex that can be used to cause us problems. While a healthy level of hubris is good in an Eldar player, (We thrive on confidence, and security in the superiority of our troops and weapons) don't let it blind you to the fact that an experienced player with a well-rounded force is and will always be our worst nightmare.

Ged
I can cram 3 Hammerheads, or 3 Stealth teams, or an unceasing wave of mechanized infantry in 1,000 points. I can stick 3 fully-upgraded Carnifexes with 2 Hive Tyrants in 1,000 points. I've managed to shove 90 Guardsmen with 2 Basilisks in 1,000 points, 45 with drop troops (previous Guard edition). I've seen what horror I can make out of my Witch Hunters, able to cut down outnumbering Space Marines like flies. I spend a month's time working on some of my favorite army lists.

I introduced my cousin to the game, having played and read the rules for half a year before I was able to show it to him. I can practice with 1 game a week in-between visits of 2 weeks in the summer, and 2 weeks for Christmas. I am more experienced than he, for 7 years now. My Tau haven't even seen defeat yet this year. I can get 20-30 practice games, join 40k forums, study mathhammer, I spend at least 4 hours a day in this hobby.

I have fought over 100 games against his Eldar, 90% of the time against a completely different army, all played by the same person, all made up on the spot (an army list made in less than 1 hour). I have used Orks, Tau (most of the time), Witch Hunters (much of the time), Tyranids (some of the time), Eldar, Necrons, Imperial Guard (some of the time), Daemon Hunters, Dark Eldar, Kroot Mercenaries, Genestealer Cult, even the 3rd Edition Armored Company from Chapter Approved... anything and everything not standard Space Marines. Several of these games were played with deployment on the short ends (with 60" between our table edges).

Less than 2% of those 90 Eldar army lists my cousin makes on the spot are balanced forces -- all are specialized in their own way, and every single one of them with their own unique strategy and complex ideal. He even claims Eldar are not a good fighting force unless they are specialized.

And yet, I only win 1 out of 42 games against my cousin.

The Eldar are not cheese by themselves, this I know. The Eldar are cheese because once they are in the hands of a player who's play style and trickery matches them, they are cheese. One thing I emphasize to people, always, that an army list is just a group of units with stats, wargear and weapons. What you do with it can make it cheese or not. My cousin makes a strategy or ideal, and then fits an army list to go with it, not the other way around.

A balanced force in the hands of an experienced player adds up to absolutely nothing when it comes to fighting against my cousin's Eldar. The first time he fought Space Marines, it was in the store against a 17-year veteran who hates Eldar so much he will ignore anything else and focus on just destroying them. His force is extremely well balanced, even similar to the one with several Razorbacks.

My cousin was stuck with using an army list that used only real models he had (no proxy). And yet, somehow, someway, he tied the game. To this day, such an event baffles me to extreme madness.

Create 5 different army lists that are anti-Eldar against 5 specific Eldar army lists (that you make) and give them to my cousin. If you have been gaming for less than 10 years, I assure you, you will lose every single game.

I am trying to learn the ways of the Eldar so that when we next meet for the upcoming "Dygos Campaign" (the group of games we will play against each other), I will have some sort of upper hand.
__________________
If the Eldar see battle as a symphony,
Then the Elati have mastered a solo piece,
Of every instrument.


Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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