[Farseer_Emlyn]

This topic has been brewing in me for some time. A few things keyed it off more recently 1) the discussion of the (insane) Space Marine powers in the Rumors thread and 2) a comment that was made during a recent game when my opponent asked what Witchblades do then said "is that all?".

So, yes, I am going to be a little fanboy here, but I would like to discuss this. So bear with me.
[hr]
Eldar are one of the most powerfully psychic races in the galaxy. They wield powers that can "hurl a battle tank into the air"[sup]1[/sup] or incinerate a foe with a thought. They do all of this with little concern of predation from the warp due to their wraithbone runes which channel energies away from the psyker and into the rune.[sup]2[/sup]

Eldar psykers utilize wraithbone swords called witchblades. These blades have a psychic matrix which allows the bearer to focus his or her psychic energy through the blade itself which "can incinerate a foe where he stands."[sup]3[/sup]

That said, why then do the Witchblades bear some of the worse anti-personnel rules in the game? Next only to the generic Close Combat Weapon...Witchblades do nothing. They don't bypass armor or invulnerable saves. They aren't force weapons. They merely make it easier to wound an enemy.[sup]4[/sup]

Granted, their ability is very handy for our physically weak psykers, but I for one would gladly pay the extra points to at least have them retain their current rules with the power weapon, rending or other similar rule.

But I find it very frustrating that Space Marines wield powerful Force Weapons which outshine our Witchblades in almost every way (except against vehicles) and according to all of the fluff, the Marines are poorer psykers with less psychically attuned equipment.

I apologize if all of this sounds rather Fanboy-esque of me. But it has bothered me for some time.
Cheers,
Em

1) 4th edition Eldar Codex p.26
2) 4th edition Eldar Codex p.51
3) 4th edition Eldar Codex p.27
4) 5th edition Rules p.42

[Wingates_hellsing]

The reason why space marines weapons are better is because they are Space Marines. They are popular, and are therefore given upgrades and equipment which is comparatively broken at best. I wouldn't say you comments are overly Fanboyish, or that they are, but in these circumstances are warrented.

Farseers are the most powerful psychers in the fluff... Why aren't they better than Librarians?
Shurikens are more-than-razor-sharp discs that fly at supersonic speeds, why don't they have better AP?

The reason why I haven't, and have decided I never will start a SM force is that they're rules are written, if not by fanboys, by people catering to those fanboys. Plenty of things are legitimate, but so many aren't that it is the #1 problem with the game, so far as I'm concerned.

Maybe if we send twenty million E-Mails to GW they might consider boosting the other armies for a moment, before throwing the idea out the window and boosting some SM units and placind mildly annoying drawbacks on the army here and there that don't really affect the problem at hand.

People point to the fluff of Marines making them nigh invulnerable, which in itself i find equally aggravated as so much of it glosses over how they survive completely while pouring over 'tehr awezomz' the entire time. That said, books like the Space Wolf series (haven't read them? you really should) portray the victories being through skill in battle or succesful, if not mildly barbaric at times, tactics. An autocannon can kill a marine, a lasgun to the head can kill a marine. And I'm sure if they had faced Eldar in those books plenty would have died to the millions of shuricat fire and the fact they aren't even wearing helmets.

Rant over.

[khanaris]

I think you sort of answered your own question. This is about game balance. Eldar fluff has continually pushed their capabilities higher and higher in the background, but at the end of the day the army has to be balanced in the tabletop game. Every army has to have a few upgrades that outshine those of their opponents. It is not like Eldar don't also have Power Weapons elsewhere in the list.

The background is exaggerated. It can not drive the rules. As tough as the Eldar or Space Marines are in the background, they are still going to lose about 50% of the time in the game.

[Wingates_hellsing]

I would agree, exept that if two starting players of equal skill picked up Eldar and SM, the SM player would win 80%. Two eperianced player: 70% to the SM. Masters? then 50%.

I don't think anyone is saying the fluff should be directly translated, but if you're going to set a convention in that a race is psychically superior, and base the army around that: why do they still make the Marines better?

Tau had outsold the Marines once, and then they were weakened. Meanwhile the Marines are losing the flavor they once had, just look at the blood angels. I guess the question for me is:

What can we do about it?

For the sake of everyone, Marine players included.

[The Mighty Plipo]

I agree about the witchblades. Paying 25 points for a Warlock you get T3, 4+ save, 1 wound and a witchblade. compare to a necron warrior, 18 points T4 3+ save gauss weapon, WBB.

Now, I grant that the 4+ warlock save is invuln, but still, every shot from a bolter will hit on a 3, wound on a 3 and the wound will stick on a 3-, giving a bolter shot (just one) a 21.78% chance of killing a 25 point model. the Necron warrior, 5.445% (a vanilla marine has a 10.89% chance to die to a bolter if you were wondering, but I don't have the points cost for them memorized)

The witchblade either needs more power (rending would be nice) or the cost needs to come down.... probably to 20 points for a warlock. I've been disappointed by the witchblade since the first time I saw it in 4th ed.

I realize that I didn't cover all the bonuses the warlock gets, but fleet, and being a psyker (which only counts for wraithsight tests at the 25 point cost) just don't count for much.

I also agree with Hellsing about the marines, GW needs to stop catering to their pet race and pay attention to everyone else for a change. I mean the marines are getting a new codex to update from 4th ed to 5th ed and the poor Dark Eldar are still 3rd ed. The 'Nids could also use a new codex, and the necrons, but who gets a new one, the people who are still ridiculously easy to win with (because they can ignore certain core rules).

okay, I need to stop now before I REALLY start to rant.

[WillfulWizard]

Originally Posted by The Mighty Plipo

I realize that I didn't cover all the bonuses the warlock gets, but fleet, and being a psyker (which only counts for wraithsight tests at the 25 point cost) just don't count for much.

I think a few of you are playing the wrong army, or at least the wrong HQ. Farseers and Warlocks are not meant, generally, to kill things on their own. They're meant to be support our other units, to make them better at whatever it is they do. Just think about every time you've explained one of our psychic powers to an opponent and watched their eyes go wide:

"How many Guardians get to go first?"
"Your whole army gets to re-roll to wound that unit?"
"Why do the Wraithguard get a 5+ coversave? WHAT?! ITS RE-ROLLABLE?"

So, most of the time when you take a Farseer or Warlock, don't think you're spending points on a guy who can't kill cause his witchblade is too weak. Instead, imagine you're spending a point or two more per guy on your favorite squad the psyker is going to help, and ask yourself if that squad re-rolling to wound (insert your favorite power) is worth it. The more points you spent on that favorite squad, the better the deal you're getting on the power. Anything the psyker happens to kill himself is just extra.

I think Khanaris had it right: the witchblade being bad is just one of the balances for everything COOL about the Farseer and Warlock. If you want your HQ to kill things on their own, try an Autarch, an Avatar, or one of the Phoenix Lords. I'll happily deal with the witchblade, cause all the cool psychic powers Eldar get are one of my favorite things about the Eldar.

-"DOOOOM!!!!"
-Willfulwizard

EDIT: Minor rewording, spelling corrections

[Wingates_hellsing]

I don't think anyone here doesn't understand the quintisential Eldar Psycher's role. What's being discussed here is that, in one example, a peice of wargear from a significantly advanced faction not being as good as the one made by a comparatively barbaric faction.

Or basically another rant on the comprehensive and all-around negative fanboyism that has inflicted itself on the Marines in fluff and rules.

[Mordekiem]

You also forget that a witchblade is much better at injuring high toughness creatures. It is also more powerful than a powerfist against vehicles. It is not just antipersonnel. It is a multi-use weapon.


I think I read once that if you take a warlock with a witchblade and a warlock with a powerweapon they will do about the same amount of damage vs MEQs. If someone gets inspired I'd be curious what kind of numbers you run with that.

[Yriel of Iyanden]

Hey FE,

I understand your frustration somewhat. In 2nd edition- witchblades were amped up versions of Force Weapons, but back then they were less common (wargear cards), and generally not efficient enough when running a lean list- so most Farseers ran with regular force weapons (this is when we had access to those too). Not to mention the 2nd Edition Eldar Runic powers were insanely good, and had extra protection against PoTW (I miss executioner!).

In 3rd edition it wasn't so much an issue mainly because Eldar pskyers didn't come standard with them, at at 15pts a pop most of us just went without them.

So- from personal experience it has always seemed Force weapons just appeared to be more "practical".

That said- I ask you to look at the big picture.

Khanaris mentioned balance, and it's a valid point. I also ask you to look at versatility and availability. Think of Space Marine psykers as individual juggernauts- their power focusing on the singular beings, while the influence of Eldar psykers is more widespread and integral to the force at large. So it would make sense that the weapons of each would suit this 'characteristic'.

So- these days both weapons are standard kit for their respective psykers. The Force weapon is an excellent stand alone weapon- usually running at S4 (but so rarely above 5 or 6), which is plenty for most single combats. It also ignores armor saves and can insta-kill on a successful psychic test. There's no question this is one of the single best close combat weapons in the game.

That said- your standard Space Marine force can carry at most 2 of these puppies.

Now- consider the witchblade. As it is now standard kit- it comes in just 1pt cheaper than it did when it was wargear. It wounds anything on a 2+, but allows armor, and counts as S9 against AV. Defintiely nothing to laugh at, yet it doesn't have the "wow" factor a force weapon has when you pop a character with it.

But...it's available to us in droves- as are the psykers. For around 40-45pts you can upgrade a number of Eldar units with a witchblade-toting psyker who is also granting cover saves, enhancing WS and I, bolstering leadership, or providing a wonderful heavy flamer. The witchblade and its availability grants units that would otherwise have no anti-tank or anti-MC this component, not to mention the fact that you can potentially field whole units of guys with these weapons.

The other item confounding the issue is the sheer popularity of Space Marines on the tabletop. Playing against an abundance of 3+ save opponents lends to the greater utility of power weapons and force weapons, but if we're talking fluff not only are those Space Marines rare, their librarians and force weapons are even more rare. A "fluffier" gaming experience for an Eldar warhost would be that it's gonna face IG, Orks, even Tau or 'Nids more than Space Marines, and these happen to be opponents where wounding on 2+ or popping a tank is going to be more useful if not versatile than the Libby's Force Weapon.

So yes- maybe they didn't really bring witchblades nor psykers up to the standard of the fluff, but I do feel the comparison is balanced.

- Yriel

[WillfulWizard]

Originally Posted by Mordekiem

I think I read once that if you take a warlock with a witchblade and a warlock with a powerweapon they will do about the same amount of damage vs MEQs. If someone gets inspired I'd be curious what kind of numbers you run with that.

Well lets see... comparing weapons so we start with a hit...
Witchblade: 1 (assume a hit) * 5/6 (2+ to wound) * 2/6 (3+ failed saves) = .27778 unsaved wounds
Power Weapon: 1 (assume a hit) * 2/6 (5+ to wound) = .33333 unsaved wounds

A witchblade is exactly 5/6ths as good as a power weapon against MEQs. No doubt the witchblade is better against GEQ, Monstrous creatures, tanks....

Originally Posted by Wingates_Hellsing

I don't think anyone here doesn't understand the quintisential Eldar Psycher's role. What's being discussed here is that, in one example, a peice of wargear from a significantly advanced faction not being as good as the one made by a comparatively barbaric faction.

Or basically another rant on the comprehensive and all-around negative fanboyism that has inflicted itself on the Marines in fluff and rules.

Oh I'll agree Marines get the love. I just think you're comparing apples and oranges. Let's even say for a moment the the witchblade is not a very cool weapon. (I wouldn't actually agree with that after reading Yriel's post, but it doesn't matter for my point.) I would expect to find our cool Eldar close combat weapons on guys who want to end up in close combat: Harlies, Scorpions, Banshees, and Shining Spears.

Now where do we find our Eldar psykers? If I recall correctly, non of the Farseer psychic powers can be used in close combat. Is this true of Librarian powers? (I honestly just don't know.) Warlocks can be found with our Guardians, Guardian Jetbikes, Wraithguard, Support Weapons and with other Warlocks. I'll yield that Storm Guardians want to get into close combat. I'll even ignore Guardian Defenders, since a nice charge after shooting can finish the job*, and Warlock only squads, since they would seek CC if warlocks had good CC weapons, or avoid it if they don't. But clearly the remaining squads are not at their best in CC. That still leaves us with this total:

Psykers seeking CC: 1
Storm Guardians

Psykers neutral on CC: 2
Defender Guardians, Warlock squads

Psykers against CC: 8
Wraithguard, Support Weapons, Guardian Jetbikes, Farseer with Doom, Guide, Mind War, Eldritch Storm, or Fortune.

That's 8 reasons why our psykers don't want to end up in close combat, 2 reasons they might end up in close combat, and 1 likely cause of them ending there. Why would you give your best close combat weapons to these guys? The fact that the witchblade is this cool is great considering how little we'd prefer they use it. If you want to compare cool close combat weapons between races, how about for the Eldar you pick Biting Blades, Chainsabres, Executioners, Mirrorswords, Harlequin's kisses, or the Star Lance?

I think you'll find our apples are just as juicy as the Marines' apples.

-Still going with "DOOOOOOOM!!!!!"
-Willful Wizard

*The charge to finish the job applies to Wraithguard as well, I do that often enough. But if I could trade that charge for another volley of Wraithcannon fire, I'm going with warp death for my enemies.