[Farseer_Emlyn]

Bebe's army list got me thinking: with the new sniper rules in 5th, do Rangers and Pathfinders benefit or take a hit?

Now, I don't have my new 5th edition rules yet (should be here early this week...which also means that my assessment is based on rumors and a leaked pre-copy...so correct me if I'm wrong) but Sniper rifles are undergoing two major changes in 5th edition. A) they lose the 2+ to hit. B) they gain Rending.

Now at first I thought that this was stupid since the Ranger Long Rifle pretty much had rending before - but rending is different now too.

So before 5th edition, we were looking at this:
2+ to hit, 4+ to wound, if a 5-6 is rolled (for pathfinders) the attack ignores all armor. So against MEQ's, each shot yields about .25 kills. Not too shabby.

Now we are looking at losing our 2+ to hit but gaining rending. Is it worth it?
3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, a 5-6 to hit yields an AP1, a 6 to wound yields rending.
So against MEQ's, each shot yields .305 kills. Even better.

The best part is that against Feel No Pain models - your Rangers are now ignoring that rule 41% of the time.

[Circus Freak]

Emlyn, what's the difference between AP1 and Rending? Both ignore the armour. I don't see how it can possibly be better because the only thing that's changed is the roll to hit.

[enderwiggin]

Originally Posted by Cheeky Circus is Cheeky

Emlyn, what's the difference between AP1 and Rending? Both ignore the armour. I don't see how it can possibly be better because the only thing that's changed is the roll to hit.

He's got a point. :P

Rangers can get a 2+ save from other units thought right? That's almost worthwhile on it's own...

[limpchickeninabizkit]

I don't think it is double the chance, but you can get more AP1/2 shots off. Youc an get an AP 1 shot off the to hit roll, or on the to wound roll.

[Circus Freak]

Oh yes. That is my silliness. I can see your point now.

But the AP1 shots need to wound...

[enderwiggin]

But they do wound on a 4+ so they do decently.


I didn't realize both abilities went off like that. Very nice.

[JoeGuardsman]

Yes the AP 1 shot needs to wound and 1/3rd of those wounds were going to be AP 1 anyway. It isn't as self defeating as Poison Attacks/Killing Blow is in Fantasy but it makes Pathfinders less useful to me. Something else that hasn't been spoken about is cover saves. Anything with the stealth rule is great in 40k now but I feel that Rangers having +2 to the saves is actually a bit useless. With almost everything giving you a 4 plus cover and rangers making that a 3 do you really need pathfinders making it a 2. I don't feel that you do and I'd want to save the 5 points a model.

[derfderf]

Originally Posted by JoeGuardsman

With almost everything giving you a 4 plus cover and rangers making that a 3 do you really need pathfinders making it a 2. I don't feel that you do and I'd want to save the 5 points a model.

The upgrade also gets you the AP1 shot on a 5 as well as a 6, so I think that makes it worthwhile. From a psychological standpoint, people are more generally hesitant to pour fire into a 2+ AS unit, vs a 3+ AS unit. They soak up firepower better, which makes them a better distraction

I tried out the new Pathfinders in a couple games yesterday, and I'll say that Doom makes all the difference in the world.

[JoeGuardsman]

Yeah Doom and Snipers is a terrible thing. I had that happen to an army of Orks I was running and in a low point value game it was terrible for me.

I'm just thinking that sure a 5 or 6 is AP 1 but for every 5 or 6 you roll, 1/3rd of those shots were going to be AP 1 anyway due to the rending rule. It does help still on the other 2/3rds. You get 2+ over a 3+ but a cheaper unit of rangers wouldn't mind just going to ground to get the 2+ save anyway. Sure you can keep up your firing while having the 2 but I still think that most people wont waste the shots on the 3+ save rangers either.

I'm just the kind of list writer who will cut costs everywhere and rarely use fully upgraded units. I can understand where you are coming from too.

[Cassius]

As I see it the rule changes / dynamics that affect Rangers/Pathfinders are:

Rending

Whilst this doesnt make a difference for general infantry (above the AP1 they had already) it is a significant advantage against vehicles. Add that tot he fact that Ap1 weapons also get a bonus on the damage table and I suspect they are now genuine threats to light vehicles.

More AP1

5+ rather than 6. Clear advantage here.

Infiltrate

The potetnial placement area just got a lot more interesting, definately a plus.

Cover

In 5th Ed finding Cover is MUCH easier due to friendly and enemy troop LOS rules. Thus any unit that gets a +2 to their cover save has received a massive boost. Fortune these guys and anything other than flamers is gonna struggle in the shooting phase.

Not to mention that cover is not only more common, but it is generally now 4+.

Troops

Plus they are troops! Since troops are the only class able to claim objectives another bonus to this choice.

Then you have indirect advantages such as the FNP change as per Emlyn's post.

This is why I feel my wallet getting lighter fairly soon (I currently have no ranger minis!).