[CommanderAce]

So for fun i thought i'd give you guys my opinions on the new phoenix lords and how they compare to one another. All the phoenix lords are good, and how efficient they are also depends on your style of play. This is just my opinion, but feel free to post ur own rankings...
Right so:

6) Baharroth: Some like her, b/c she's the quickest, but I just see her as a little bit better than an autarch. An autarch (pw, wings, fusion blaster) kills just a tiny bit less marines than her in assault, has a 4+ inv, reserve rule, and is much more adaptable (fusion gun). She just doesn't have the attacks and increased strength that the others do. The hawks talon isnt that great of a weapon compared to others. She probably won't make her points back.

5) Maugan Ra: He provides ample counter assault, but his difference in range from his disciples is a downer. An exarch with EML and fast shot kills about as many marines as him, and with longer range. 200 pts is a little steep for a counter assault baby sitter, that may never even get to assault.

4) Fuegan: I really like this guy. He's bad*ss. He provides a decent cc punch to a unit in dire need, b/c of their close range. However he is the most redundant charachter, with an overkill on tanks, and hardly a chance on the Monolith. People like his "feel no pain" but that won't play into use much with the awesome saves of phoenix lords. His crack shot is kinda redundant too.

3) Asurmen (the one I use myself): If he weren't so expensive, I probably would rank him higher. That being said, consider that he comes with exarch powers you would normally buy for your squad anyway. He's one of two without increased strength (the other is Baharroth :P), however he rerolls misses in cc, actually has a desperately needed inv save, and a pretty good gun(s) to boot. He also provides a nice cc punch to a unit with close range guns that will prob see cc. I see him as the perfect character killer, with his inv save, diresword (small chance), and reroll misses.

2) The big daddy Karandras: The most adaptable killer of the 6. Can kill MEQs with 8 str 8 power fist attacks on the charge , but at low initiative. Or can kill hordes with 8 str 5 attacks on the charge with his high initiative. His powers are awesome and allow him to get into assault quickly. I would NOT advise using him for charcter killing as his lack of inv, will get him killed pretty quick. And do not put him against anything with lots of power weapons/fists as he will die quickly. Its ironic how he's the most fragile of the phoenix lords (attacking last), yet has the most durable disciples. However, he opens up cans of dreadnoughts (and other vehicles) and eats marine noodle soup for lunch.

1) Drum roll.....Jain Zar!: 5 str 7 power weapon attacks that always go first on the charge! This gal can kill! Can have a decent chance against MCs and is also a good charcter killer. An improved triskele is only icing on the cake. She's also the cheepest one ???. She's a bargain, and I did the math. If she shoots and charges regular marines 3 times, she'll make back her points (killing 4-5 each time). Her only downfall is that her powers aren't that great (except furious charge) and she isn't that good against swarms of enemies. She's an awesome killer, but she is fragile, so dont give her more than she can handle.

Well that's all folks........

[whitestar333]

Originally Posted by CommanderAce

6) Baharroth: Some like her, b/c she's the quickest, but I just see her as a little bit better than an autarch. An autarch (pw, wings, fusion blaster) kills just a tiny bit less marines than her in assault, has a 4+ inv, reserve rule, and is much more adaptable (fusion gun). She just doesn't have the attacks and increased strength that the others do. The hawks talon isnt that great of a weapon compared to others. She probably won't make her points back.

I used him religiously in 3rd ed. because of Sustained Assault... now he's not nearly as impressive. I can see some applications with taking him instead of an exarch to get the abilities plus Hit and Run, but swooping hawks dont have the same CC punch (and by "the same" i mean they have none) they had before.

Originally Posted by CommanderAce

5) Maugan Ra: He provides ample counter assault, but his difference in range from his disciples is a downer. An exarch with EML and fast shot kills about as many marines as him, and with longer range. 200 pts is a little steep for a counter assault baby sitter, that may never even get to assault.

Agreed except my dark reapers don't usually use up their entire 48" anyway... they're usually shooting 24" or less because the enemy will try to come close to kill them. In which case, rending and pinning can be pretty handy... especially since he can throw out 5 shots. I don't think he'd earn his points back at all though.

Originally Posted by CommanderAce

4) Fuegan: I really like this guy. He's bad*ss. He provides a decent cc punch to a unit in dire need, b/c of their close range. However he is the most redundant charachter, with an overkill on tanks, and hardly a chance on the Monolith. People like his "feel no pain" but that won't play into use much with the awesome saves of phoenix lords. His crack shot is kinda redundant too.

You can't discount any character for not being able to do anything to the monolith because NOTHING gets its bonus against the monolith. Outside of that ONE example, he's pretty insane. I used to take him PLUS and exarch to ensure that I could destroy a vehicle, plus with two firepikes it allows for one to be a little further away without compensating with lots of melta rolls. Plus FNP is taken in addition to his armor save, so it's even BETTER than a 4+ invulnerable to everything except a) S8+ and b) power weapons. Crack shot might seem redundant, but the fire dragon exarch has it, and every phoenix lord has the two powers given to exarch of their shrine plus some other cool ability.

Originally Posted by CommanderAce

3) Asurmen (the one I use myself): If he weren't so expensive, I probably would rank him higher. That being said, consider that he comes with exarch powers you would normally buy for your squad anyway. He's one of two without increased strength (the other is Baharroth :P), however he rerolls misses in cc, actually has a desperately needed inv save, and a pretty good gun(s) to boot. He also provides a nice cc punch to a unit with close range guns that will prob see cc. I see him as the perfect character killer, with his inv save, diresword (small chance), and reroll misses.

I don't see why he's the most expensive phoenix lord. Karandras is easily the best IMO but Asurmen is more expensive for some odd reason. Maybe its the invulnerable save, but I dont see myself ever taking him, because Dire Avengers should never get into close combat IMO, and if they do, they don't usually face power weapons because they're T3 with a 4+ save.

Originally Posted by CommanderAce

2) The big daddy Karandras: The most adaptable killer of the 6. Can kill MEQs with 8 str 8 power fist attacks on the charge , but at low initiative. Or can kill hordes with 8 str 5 attacks on the charge with his high initiative. His powers are awesome and allow him to get into assault quickly. I would NOT advise using him for charcter killing as his lack of inv, will get him killed pretty quick. And do not put him against anything with lots of power weapons/fists as he will die quickly. Its ironic how he's the most fragile of the phoenix lords (attacking last), yet has the most durable disciples. However, he opens up cans of dreadnoughts (and other vehicles) and eats marine noodle soup for lunch.

I see him honestly as a waste because if you take him in close combat, he can only kill whats in contact and within 2" of him, and usually 8 powerfist attacks is overkill against anything that isnt a MC. I see him more as amplifying his squad rather than acting alone, in which case, the rest of the squad is likely charging hordes or relying on their large number of attacks - so I would prefer the 8 S5 attacks even against MEQs to kill off more in base-to-base than to let the rest of my squad kill everything off before I have a chance. Then I'd use the powerfist on the Exarch because he doesn't have to be in base-to-base to get his attacks in. That's just my view on it... save the powerfists for MCs and Vehicles, and TEQs. I think his strength is in giving his striking scorpions stealth - something that most people don't really think about and makes scorpions even more survivable. I see him as the most effective at bolstering his squad.

Originally Posted by CommanderAce

1) Drum roll.....Jain Zar!: 5 str 7 power weapon attacks that always go first on the charge! This gal can kill! Can have a decent chance against MCs and is also a good charcter killer. An improved triskele is only icing on the cake. She's also the cheepest one ???. She's a bargain, and I did the math. If she shoots and charges regular marines 3 times, she'll make back her points (killing 4-5 each time). Her only downfall is that her powers aren't that great (except furious charge) and she isn't that good against swarms of enemies. She's an awesome killer, but she is fragile, so dont give her more than she can handle.

I have to agree that she's the best, by far. I've used her to open up a hellhound too, and then it proceeded to blow up and kill off 5 guardsmen for fun. She's rediculously fragile but so are banshees in general, so she fits in with her aspect very well. She's the much needed punch that most banshees need, and if you charge her in with a squad of banshees, whatever they charge WILL die... especially if doomed. I just see furious charge being mostly unnecessary, as the initiative boost is wasted, and she really doesn't do much for her squad in the way of supporting them.

My ranks:
6) Baharroth
5) Asurmen
4) Maugan Ra
3) Fuegan
2) Jain Zar
1) Karandras

I rank according to the following, in the following order:
1) How well it supports disciples
2) Fits in with Aspect Overall Theme
3) Effectivenes when combined with aspect
4) Effectiveness alone
5) Cost
6) Compared to previous codex

[Omeganus]

Originally Posted by whitestar333

You can't discount any character for not being able to do anything to the monolith because NOTHING gets its bonus against the monolith. Outside of that ONE example, he's pretty insane. I used to take him PLUS and exarch to ensure that I could destroy a vehicle, plus with two firepikes it allows for one to be a little further away without compensating with lots of melta rolls. Plus FNP is taken in addition to his armor save, so it's even BETTER than a 4+ invulnerable to everything except a) S8+ and b) power weapons. Crack shot might seem redundant, but the fire dragon exarch has it, and every phoenix lord has the two powers given to exarch of their shrine plus some other cool ability.

S8+ does not affect Karandras' FNP as he is immune to instant death in the rulebook it does not specifically say weapons with S double the target's T ignore FNP but instead that instant death (which fuegan ignores) ignore FNP, it also defines instant death as a weapon with S double the targets S. So fuegan does not have to worry about krak missiles. He still gets his armour save and his FNP save.

[CommanderAce]

Omeganus, if thats right that makes fuegan even sweeter. However he's hardly ever gonna get shot, by himself, and attacks in cc that are cc usually ignore armor saves. I was saying his FNP rule is redundant, b/c you have to fail a 2+ save, which doesnt happen all that often. I wasn't discounting him for not being able to kill the monolith, I was just saying he's redunant b/c with a firepike and tank hunter he he has to roll a 5 or less on any vehicle with 2 dice, kinda overkill with a squad of tank hunters, but still can't take down the monolith. Crack shot is only useful at shooting into cover and even then you kill 1 thing. However, since he does provide the short ranged fire dragons some needed cc ability, I gave him a respectable 4th place.

whitestar, thanks for voicing your opinions. Yet, on ur ranking scale, I would have how well the PL nullifies the aspects weaknesses high up there. Such as Jain's high strength. Asurmen, Fuegan, and Maugan Ra's cc ability...
Why do you say Jain is the best and Karandras a waste and then have her 2nd? ???. Karandras does support his squad well, but consider that the scorps already have 3+ armor, so stealth doesnt help a whole lot and they should be in cc anyways. Karandras is, however, really good at goin solo.

Also, usually but not always my opponents are MEQs, but if you were fighting GEQs the rankings would definately change. Imagine trying to kill Dark eldar with Jain Zar, one squad of wyches would ruin you. This is why I like Asurmen, b/c he has the anti horde with his and his squads shurricats and the cc punch to take down MEQs.

Maugan Ra...I just see a smart opponent just shooting the dark reapers and I don't see him as effective b/c he costs about as much as the squad he's babysitting. You could have a wraithlord w/ SL for a lot cheaper do the same. He prob makes the best use out of fearlessness for his squad though.

O well, I like your ideas and points though. Your actually making me consider taking Fuegan, to help my poor incapable dragons.

[Utsujin]

Frankly I thought about using Jain zar in my 1k eldar list against space wolves, because he says his puppies are better in CC. I thought about just using the banshee exarch as her. Honestly, to me, she is one of the most perfect characters around.

[EldarGamer]

Overall, Karrandras takes it home. Why?

because striking scorps are the best CC unit we have besides the harlequins. Throw karrandras in there and you got something, insane. The Stealth rule is a huge boon. It may not seem like much but things with a 3+ armor save usually only get shot by ap3 weapons or better(or insane amounts of DAKKA). So, the stealth rule is a big boost, given that you'll probably be infiltrating within terrain anyway. Jain Zar unfortunately just doesn't add enough to her aspect, everything she brings to the table. She would bring to the table without them. If i am going to play a phoenix lord they are going to be accompanied by their disciples. However, banshees just never seem worth it, in most games i've played with them, they just haven't been as vicious as i would like because str 3 hurts. Karrandras himself is indeed overkill, but if i was using him with scorpions i wouldn't take the pfist from the squad. It will require a little more tactical maneuvering in order to make sure he is able to strike, but it will be worth it. Also, the stealth rule will make sure my scorp's make it into CC close to fully intact, that is so important imo.

However, as an individual character Jain zar seems to be the best, hands down, if used right(she is very fragile after all). She is the most adept when fighting solo. However, i would never really use her in that role. So for me I don't really like her, that much, she is cool and kicks tail, but She seems to be too much of a loner for me.

[Yriel of Iyanden]

This is a great topic and some really informative discussion here. My own picks, though, don't rely entirely on game effectiveness- it's a mix of the models I like and the fluff.

6) Jain Zar- now- with Jain's individual stats so impressive, why would I rank her last? Simply put- I don't care for the model at all. The ironic thing is that I happen to love the new Banshee models (I'm painting them up now, and as they will not see much combat at all I've been taking my sweet time). Jain Zar's hair is HUGE, and poofy, ala Alan Thicke's hair on growing pains. It makes her face look disproportionately small, and consequently her body disproportionately smaller. I just don't think that model can compare with the quality of the new banshees- they're simply stunning! I would rather her look more like the Banshee Exarch (though even she doesn't look as cool as her unit!).

5) Which brings me to Maugen Ra at the 5th spot. Maugen Ra in the fluff is pretty cool, but I'm somewhat biased against stationary characters firing heavy weapons. He's a cool model, but a little perplexing when you consider his combat role. He still puts modern Reapers to shame, though in terms of looks.

4) For me Karandras. Good rules, a somewhat decent model, I just wish he had a better pose. With his arms at his side he looks more like he's gonna ask me to pass him a beer, not cut me to pieces with his chainsword! Still- I have painted two variants of Karandras, and you can get a nice shadowy looking version if you use the right colors. If I were fielding a PL for tactical reasons, this would be my pick.

3) Three nearly made my number two spot as he is one of my favorite models of the group, Fuegan. Man I think the Fuegan figure rocks! He's not a bad character rules-wise either, possibly the most versatile of the whole group. Fuegan is just one of those models that paints up well, and I don't think he gets the press he deserves.

2) Nearly climbing into the top spot for me is Baharroth. After looking at his rules you might not think anything special here, because his offensive potential is pretty low frankly.But I think he's great because a) He has a proportional head and b) Hit N' Run. He and his hawks will never be as tactically sound as, say, Harlequins, but of all the characters he is to me what most typifies Eldar- blindingly fast and grace over brute force. All swooping hawk models are fantastic, and Baharroth is just a timeless mini- he looks that cool.

1) Staying at number one for me for 3 editions now is my main man, Asurmen. Okay, so he was the sleeper hit of the 3rd edition crew, turning out to be the best bargain, so they now made him ridiculously overpriced...oh well. Oddly enough, I still think the model is excellent, even with the flat pose and huge noggin'. I guess I just enjoy the idea of an all-Dire Avenger army lead by the father of all Phoenix Lords- how much fun would that be?

[CommanderAce]

Yriel, hasn't anyone ever told you? It's not whats on the outside, but what's on the inside that matters! Sheesh, someone's a little too caught up in the aesthetics of models, lol.

[Yriel of Iyanden]

Originally Posted by CommanderAce

Yriel, hasn't anyone ever told you? It's not whats on the outside, but what's on the inside that matters! Sheesh, someone's a little too caught up in the aesthetics of models, lol.

Hehe, yeah I'm a bit superficial here. I guess I should explain further.

I never field Phoenix Lords, but I have all of the models painted- it was more a labor of love than actually wanting to field them. From a purely tactical point of view- I just can't see myself wanting to spend that amount of points on anyone...and if I were to spend over 200 points on a character, he'd be a certain Ulthwe' Seer...

So if I'm actually fielding a Phoenix Lord, it's for fun. And when we're talking about fun- looks matters to me!