[sw001]

In setting up a strategy and army lists for larger games, what flexibility is needed? I guess in some ways, this applies to all armies, but I'm curious how Eldar players handle this.

For example:
- how many anti-tank units are needed, and do they all need to worry about penetrating Land Raiders/Russes/Monoliths (AV 14 items)?

- what type of assaults will the units face from jump infantries, bikes, etc.?

How do you go about creating a really good all comers list? I'm really interested how people have tackled this with the Eldar.

[Yriel of Iyanden]

Hi sw001,

This is a very deep question! I myself go for themed lists, but within my lists I'm looking for certain things that cater to my own playstyle. I don't necessarily count the number of assault or anti-armor units I will need, but I'm sure other players do this. I'll walk you through my own methoology of selecing a list:

Core force

I generally select my core force first- meaning I select a tactical core based on a strategy I hope to achieve. For this example- I'll select a Saim Hann force, and I guess it all depends on my particular mood...today I'm feeling the red and black zooming across the table, but maybe tomorrow I'm more interested in a near-extinct craftworld desperately fighting for its own survival. Okay so I picked a Saim Hann force, and as you mention 1500-2k in points, I'll build a 1500 list with a 1,000pt tactical core. Now my intent with Saim Hann is about speed, volume firepower, and board coverage. I'm looking to do most of my business in the shooting phase, but I want enough assault to handle things like one-off assault units, Tau, or Imperial Guard who are capable of shooting me off the board unless I have something for them.

I start off with a couple of compulsory units, and my HQ:

Farseer Shadrinar 118
Jetbike, Singing Spear, Fortune

6 Jetbikes 152
2x Shuriken Cannon

[b]8 Dire Avengers[b] 233
Exarch, Extra Shuricat
In Wave Serpent
TWL Shuriken Cannon, Hull Mounted Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stone

Now, I started off lean on the units, drawing from my personal battlefield experience and preference to select the options, numbers, etc.

This are decent compulsory units for Saim Hann- great speed, good dakka, and with decent S6+ in each unit, I now feel comfortable facing a single AR12 unit. That sounds weird considering how much AT I have (6 shots from jetbikes, Farseer Singing Spear can deal with AR14 in a pinch, plus another 6, 3 rerollable) so from an anti-armor perspective I'm still not quite satisfied. Plus- I'm at the bare minimum for troops, and I hate that...I'll add another troops selection:

10 Guardians 240pts
Scatter Laser
In Wave Serpent
TWL Brightlances, Spirit Stone

743pts so far. I've got decent anti-armor so far, but no charge/countercharge, so I go with another standard:

Elites

8 Harlequins 206
8 Harelquins Kiss, Shadowseer

and just another fluffy option:

Vyper 60pts
Scatter Laser

That puts me at 1009pts, and I'm very pleased with this tactical core. I still don't have great answers for AR14 all sides, but I'd be comfortable cramming my jetbikes down the field at a Leman side shot, and a single Brightlance isn't great, but I've handled AR14 with less AT on my list.

Tanks are a primary threat to my list, but they are no less a threat than buried heavy/special weapons. Still, I can handle most AR up to 12 and some 13+ at this point, I'll just need to keep lots of options. I go with a standard:

Falcon 175
Scatter Laser Spirit Stone, Holofield

and add:

6 Fire Dragons 96

Now I have legitimate anti-tank on my list- which is still fluffy, and speedy- my favorite! At 1280 now, I want another dakka option, so I go with:

5 Warp Spiders 142
Exach, Extra Spinner, Withdraw

Which gives me an "in" for cheap combats like Firewarriors or IG, and once again another AR12 option. I have 78 points left, so I decide to add:

Vyper 75
Brightlance

Which leaves me at 1497pts. Now I'm very pleased with this list- I have speed all over the board, went for fluff but stayed balanced, didn't min/max, and ready for action!

[sw001]

Thanks Yriel, that was really great. I'm struggling to come up with a good core, and the supporting troops. I'm also trying not to get caught up in min/maxing, but also want to field a competitive army. I need more experience, but want to learn with a solid base to start with. My army will have the appearance of a Saim-Hann force as I'm going red (my favorite look) but I'll most likely be playing it in different ways.

It sounds like for anti-tank then, I need at least one good specialized unit (like the Fire Dragons) and a variety of units that can also fill the role if needed?

Anti-armor support is necessary/obvious, but are there any other obvious situations that every list needs to counter?

Thanks.

[Yriel of Iyanden]

Originally Posted by sw001

Anti-armor support is necessary/obvious, but are there any other obvious situations that every list needs to counter?

Thanks.

Absolutely! There are a number of things you can expect, especially in a competitive setting:

- Special plays like Siren Bomb, FoF

- Units that present unique tactical challenges, such as assassins

- Godzilla armies

- Speed Freek/Dark Eldar blitzes

- Necron phalanxes

- Drop Pod armies

- Pie plate freaks and treadheads

There are too many to name in fact. One could go crazy trying to build a bulletproof list that can deal with everything...but frankly I don't believe that is where the focus is when building an Eldar army. Lists are important, VERY important in fact, but I've discovered through the years that experienced, goal-oriented focussed play is really waht's going to get you through a game once your list has been reasonably balanced.

For example- I don't have a lot of reliable ways of dealing with necron monoliths on my list...but against a player fielding three of them, my core strategy remains the same. I take opportunities when they are presented, but I make the decision on the field to focus on my strenrths, speed and volume shooting. If I were playing a 3 monolith opponent with my list- I'd do what most experienced generals do and try and phase the guy out- which should be easy because he spent half his points on Monoliths!

To me- a good Eldar core has to be cohesive enough to carry out an attaimable battle-goal, while still being balanced enough to make tactical adjustments and decisions on the field. Remember my focus was speed and mid-range/strength firepower, which I have built into the list. The rest of it boils down to my ability as a player to showcase those strengths and adjust to my opponent/settings.

What are you looking at for your core force? Maybe we can help with that for starters.

[sw001]

Thanks for another answer.

What are you looking at for your core force? Maybe we can help with that for starters.

I'm approaching this with somewhat conflicting desires. Obviously, I'd like to field a competitive army. I'd also like to use some of the more fun units in the Eldar list, units that drew me to the Eldar to start. In general, and one reason I'm using red as the overall theme of my army is that I like speed (Saim Hann). (Here is a question, do you have one main army with a single color scheme, or have you collected enough models to field a Saim Hann and other lists?) I also like very capable units, as it seems very frustrating with those BS 3 dice rolls .

Units I'd love to field include War Walkers (love the models), Wraithlord (love the model), Wraithguard (love the models and got a great deal on 10 of them), Harlequins (love the models/concepts), Shining Spears, and Warp Spiders. I think I will have to have a couple army lists at this point .

At the moment, I've thought of a core group of:
Eldrad (to allow for two fortunes and a guide)
10 Wraithguard (stay fortuned)
5 Harlequins (support, also potentially forturned)
3x Scatter Laser Walkers (guide)

Add a mobile force of:
DAs in a serpent
Shining Spears for support of DAs

At this point, I'm unsure what to do with a list. Is the core group strong enough on its own, what to add for anti-tank (2 fire prisms? falcon/fire dragons, wraithlord (a good theme with wraithguard, etc.) I'd love to potentially fit in the Warp Spiders too, but I'm not sure what role they'd really shine in with the list.

Thanks!

[Yriel of Iyanden]

Originally Posted by sw001

(Here is a question, do you have one main army with a single color scheme, or have you collected enough models to field a Saim Hann and other lists?)

I actually have 3+ different craftworlds (Iyanden, Saim Hann, Biel Tan, also fledgling Alaitoc and Ulthwe&#39 all capable of being fielded as seperate, completely painted armies. Iyanden is my largest craftworld, but I can comfortably play large points with Saim Hann and Biel Tan.

Units I'd love to field include War Walkers (love the models), Wraithlord (love the model), Wraithguard (love the models and got a great deal on 10 of them), Harlequins (love the models/concepts), Shining Spears, and Warp Spiders. I think I will have to have a couple army lists at this point .

None of that is conflicting unless you are trying to remain highly themed to your craftworld. As there are no more craftworld lists, I don't see a problem with playing a more "vanilla" Saim Hann army- I love the color so much I'm tempted to do the same!

At the moment, I've thought of a core group of:
Eldrad (to allow for two fortunes and a guide)
10 Wraithguard (stay fortuned)
5 Harlequins (support, also potentially forturned)
3x Scatter Laser Walkers (guide)

Add a mobile force of:
DAs in a serpent
Shining Spears for support of DAs

The core does seem a tad disjointed. First thing's first- you'll need one more compulsory troops choice in there. Eldrad supporting the wraithbone wall is pricey, but boy will that be effective! Also- you have decent, if fragile fire support.

My problem with the core is this: It can be picked apart and rendered ineffective, even at scoring levels. A competent player can reduce your warwalkers to about one round of shooting, and then have a second turn of fire good enough to deal with your mobility (Serpent + SS's). The army can be dissected to focus on your range, then your speed, without which the wraithbone wall is simply something to be outmaneuvered.

You mention wanting to add Warp Spiders to this list. If this were my core I'd add the spiders- they can present tactical problems for your enemy far greater than the warwalkers, and are an excellent complement to the wraithbone wall. I'd also look to beef the harlequin unit, and rethink Shining Spears on this list- they have uses, but as it stands they don't "chain" particularly well with this force.

Consider another mounted Dire Avenger unit. This takes up your second compulsory plus you can configure them for another Wave Serpent. If you're going with a Falcon, drop the Shining Spears for Fire Dragons- it will give you the reliable anti-tank you were looking for.

[sw001]

I actually have 3+ different craftworlds (Iyanden, Saim Hann, Biel Tan, also fledgling Alaitoc and Ulthwe&#39 all capable of being fielded as seperate, completely painted armies. Iyanden is my largest craftworld, but I can comfortably play large points with Saim Hann and Biel Tan.

Wow, that's quite a few models .

A competent player can reduce your warwalkers to about one round of shooting, and then have a second turn of fire good enough to deal with your mobility (Serpent + SS's).

Are you negative on Warwalkers in general, or just in this application?

Shouldn't the mobility of the Serpent with DA's and turbo-boosted SS's keep them relatively safe? I also thought that the Spears would stay behind the Serpent, and be used in case the DA's were locked into assault, or as a deterrent to assaulting the Dire Avengers. The Spears could also be used to clean up groups the DA's reduce substantially. At least that's my working theory, but again, trying to figure out how this works in the real world too, and learn from other veterans.

Consider another mounted Dire Avenger unit. This takes up your second compulsory plus you can configure them for another Wave Serpent. If you're going with a Falcon, drop the Shining Spears for Fire Dragons- it will give you the reliable anti-tank you were looking for.

The Wraithguard served as the second compulsory troop, as it was fielded in a wall of 10 units. I think that's right.

My theory on Eldrad was to allow the Farseer to cast Fortune twice, both on the 'Quins and Wraithguard. Guiding or dooming another unit is also very handy. Eldrad seems like a very potent unit.

I love the suggestion of two Serpents with DAs, and have wanted to do that. The whole 'Serpent of Fury' is great. The cost is pretty significant though, so I wasn't sure how to go about that, and have the large unit of Wraithguard and Harlequins. If you have to very fast troop choices, can it work to also have the Wraithguard? At that point, do I pay for another non-scoring Serpent to move around a smaller Wraithguard unit?

In the end, is it possible, and effective, to have an army that consists of two squad of DAs with serpents, and also a unit of Wraithguard backed by Harlequins?

Thanks again for the help. I'm trying to soak it all in! Obviously, playing is the best teacher, but in a lot of ways, I like the aspect of building/thinking about units as much, and don't have a lot of time to really play test these days. Building and collecting the models has been enjoyable as well.

[sw001]

How does a list like this work (2000 pts), enough anti-tank, etc.:

HQ: Eldrad
Troop: 10 Dire Avengers (Exarch, 2 Shuriken Catapaults, Bladestorm) with Serpent (vectored engines, spirit stones, twin shuri cannons)
Troop: 10 Wraithguard w/ Warlock (Conceal, Spiritseer)

Elite: 6 Harlequins w/ shadowseer and 6 kisses
Elite: 6 Harlequins w/ shadowseer and 6 kisses
Elite: 6 Fire Dragons (mount in Falcon)

Fast: 8 Warp Spiders (exarch, surprise, withdraw, powerblades, additional death spinner)

Heavy: Falcon (vectored engines, star engines, holo fields, shuriken upgrade, scatter laser)
Heavy: Wraithlord (bright lance, missile launcher)

DAs and Fire Dragons will be a mobile assault, handle the weak side of opponent, or enemy armor with DAs defending Dragons

Wraithguard, Wraithlord, Eldrad, and Harlequins form an advancing firebase, with Harlequins support Wraithlord (which is fortuned/guided on doomed units).

Warp Spiders play havoc with whatever they can.

[Yriel of Iyanden]

Originally Posted by sw001

How does a list like this work (2000 pts), enough anti-tank, etc.:

HQ: Eldrad
Troop: 10 Dire Avengers (Exarch, 2 Shuriken Catapaults, Bladestorm) with Serpent (vectored engines, spirit stones, twin shuri cannons)
Troop: 10 Wraithguard w/ Warlock (Conceal, Spiritseer)

Elite: 6 Harlequins w/ shadowseer and 6 kisses
Elite: 6 Harlequins w/ shadowseer and 6 kisses
Elite: 6 Fire Dragons (mount in Falcon)

Fast: 8 Warp Spiders (exarch, surprise, withdraw, powerblades, additional death spinner)

Heavy: Falcon (vectored engines, star engines, holo fields, shuriken upgrade, scatter laser)
Heavy: Wraithlord (bright lance, missile launcher)

This list is brutal. Could use a couple of tweaks here and there, but should perform well.

What you have going on is your wraithbone wall setup, and then you've got speedy cleanup units. The dire avenger setup is great as an adjunct (you can blitz with vectored engines to set yourself up for bladestorm the following turn) and Warp Spiders as a functional blitz/draw team that can deal with fast enemy armor and units as well.

With two units of Harlies (which probably could use a model or two more if you ask me), you're setting up for an optional turn 2 blitz, or against a competent player, a turn 3 charge. You can chain Harlies to Warp Spider draws and the wraith wall, depending on what type of opponent you face.

My favorite part about your list? Omega level missions. Because your footsloggers either have decent range and speed going for them- they can start things quickly in games that aren't intended to be bloody early. The Harlies have a great delivery system, and your Dire Avengers and Warp Spiders provide focussed, fast response dakka when they are available.

[sw001]

Thanks.

My latest thought would be to increase one Harlie squad and replace the other with Banshees, having two larger fast CC squads. Harlie's on foot are slightly quicker through terrain though, have the Veil, but don't stand up as well in CC. Hmm.

Actually increasing one Harlie squad, and replacing the other also frees up 30 points since I will only need one Shadowseer. If I drop the SpiritSeer w/ conceal (and let Eldrad handle the Wraithunits), then I could start thinking about another unit.

Thoughts?