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Vypers
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Old 25 Mar 2006, 03:10   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Vypers

I need help, [glow=red,2,300]SERIOUS HELP[/glow].

My brother is playing Craftworld Eldar, and he has constant trouble in that he finds his Vyper crashing to the ground ALWAYS before at least turn 3. This fusturates him extremely, and so here I am on his behalf, asking for help.

How do you best use a Vyper Jetbike in the Infantry Support/Anti-Tank role?! ???
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Old 25 Mar 2006, 03:27   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Vypers

Please don't use all-out caps - it makes the post look angry and unprofessional.

Vypers are fragile, simple as that - one thing he could do, though, is to give it a Crystal Targetting Matrix, allowing it to evade incoming fire much more more effectively.
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Old 25 Mar 2006, 05:57   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Vypers

Aye, CTM to hide behind cover or spirit stones and holo field if it has to be in the open. Always move over 6" and just get used to them dying, they are cheap
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Old 25 Mar 2006, 10:00   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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It's tough, no doubt, and is something that I've constantly struggled with since incorporating the things into my army.

First, you have to come to terms with the fact that they're excellent targets. If your opponent has the opportunity to shoot a Wraithlord (that's farther than 12" away), a Falcon, a small squad of Guardians with a platform, or a Vyper, he ought to pick the Vyper every time. It's the easiest to damage and the easiest to kill. Additionally, if the enemy fires at them, then they will die. Holofields are simply not worth it - you bump the Vyper up to more than a Land Speeder in cost, while making it only slightly more survivable (and more vulnerable to being shaken and the like) and maintaining its inferior firepower.

That said, your job is obviously to stop the enemy from firing on them. There are several ways to accomplish this.

Crystal Targeting Matrices can be effective, but are fairly unreliable. Their usefulness is quite contingent on the presence of terrain, and enemy deep-strikers screw them up rather badly. In the modern playing environment, it's rare not to run into a Marine every other game or so, and the vast majority of them seem to deep-strike something capable of killing a Vyper. In such cases, the CTM just adds to the point cost of the unit that they kill. For that reason (as well as Guard deep-striking), I'm fond of taking Vypers naked - only upgrading their Shuriken Cannon to a better weapon.

Target saturation works wonders. This occurs when you give your opponent so many similar targets that he simply can't shoot them all. For Vypers, 'similar' targets are going to be things of similar threat value and fragility - War Walkers and Dark Reapers work, though more Vypers is generally the best solution. In 1000 points, I run 2 Vypers, 2 Serpents, and 2 Falcons - by presenting so many tanks, I force my opponents to choose whether to hit the Vypers (who will shoot them up), the Serpents (who will deliver flamer death squads and then start tank-shocking), or the Falcons (who fry light vehicles). However, an all-infantry Marine army is going to focus on the Vypers. This works very well against Guard armies and the like - a flamer squad in a Serpent or Falcon is too big a threat to ignore, so the Vypers wlil often escape the majority of AT fire.

Against Marines, that leaves you with just one option - annihilate the enemy. Kill everything in range and LoS of the Vypers so that they can't be shot. This works fairly well, actually, since Marines tend to take understrength dev squads or minned Tac squads. Being low in number, they also tend to deploy fairly loosely so as to better take objectives. It's not terribly difficult to knock out a 5 or 6-man squad in a single turn of shooting, and that's often all that can bring serious firepower to bear on a certain area - this is where you put the Vypers. Yeah, they'll end up knocking you out with a drop pod, but that drop squad costs them much more than the Vyper costs you, provided you keep it at or below 65 points.

On weapons - I find that a Starcannon is generally the best choice. They're there to provide a bit of extra oomph to your MEQ-killing. Putting Bright Lances on them is counterproductive - you're essentially offering up your only anti-tank weapons up to the enemy on a silver platter. An enemy who needs your AT dead (a vehicle-heavy one, clearly) will just snipe the Vypers and leave you high and dry. Shuriken Cannons are horribly ineffective against most targets, and force them to get too close to the targets that they're good against. Scatter Lasers are better, but why not shell out the extra points for three times the MEQ killing ability? Finally, Missile Launchers are actually a decent choice in some cases. The extra range can be very handy. Unfortunately, they're quite expensive, and subject to the same flaws as the CTM (deep-strikers).

A Starcannon Vyper will be a MEQ's first target, so make sure to keep them safe by picking off anything able to shoot them. Always have sufficient firepower handy to polish off a drop squad that comes in to kill them. Such a Vyper will be a fairly low priority for a GEQ, though, so feel free to play them more aggressively. Just make sure that the enemy always has another target, like a Serpent full of flamers or Scorpions. Never let your Vyper be the closest large target to an enemy with an AT weapon.
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Old 25 Mar 2006, 16:38   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Vypers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dra-Tuisich'Novae
Please don't use all-out caps - it makes the post look angry and unprofessional.

Vypers are fragile, simple as that - one thing he could do, though, is to give it a Crystal Targetting Matrix, allowing it to evade incoming fire much more more effectively.
Okay, if you say so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotchaye
Shuriken Cannons are horribly ineffective against most targets, and force them to get too close to the targets that they're good against.
They can be useful, especially against Orks and they're Low Armour Vehicles, especially if you take 2. Just zip up, open fire, then use the help that the 'Hit & Run' gives to all Vypers.

By the way, is it possible to not take the 35pt CTM, and instead just use the 'Hit & Run': move out 6", shoot, move back 6" ?
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Old 25 Mar 2006, 17:01   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Vypers

No, because without a CTM you cannot move after shooting :.
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Old 25 Mar 2006, 19:41   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Vypers

Quote:
No, because without a CTM you cannot move after shooting .
It depends on how far you move. If you move 12", and then shoot, then you can't move again, but if you move 6in., you can shoot, and move another 6in. again.

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Old 25 Mar 2006, 20:09   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Vypers

A normal vehicle moves in the movement phase, shoots in the shooting phase, and does bully all in the Assaul Phase. Period.

Without a Crystal Targetting Matrix, you cannot move after shooting... why in Vaul's name do you think it's so expensive?! Jetbikes can JSJ by default - Vyper Jetbikes cannot.
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Old 26 Mar 2006, 00:28   #9 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Vypers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dra-Tuisich'Novae
A normal vehicle moves in the movement phase, shoots in the shooting phase, and does bully all in the Assaul Phase. Period.

Without a Crystal Targetting Matrix, you cannot move after shooting... why in Vaul's name do you think it's so expensive?! Jetbikes can JSJ by default - Vyper Jetbikes cannot.
Actually man, they can. It says so right in the codex, I'm afraid IAmAngel is right. That's also probably another reason why Vypers are so 'special'.
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Old 26 Mar 2006, 00:32   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Vypers

Where does it say that? Page referance, if you will?
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