[Pathius]

HQ
farseer 204
jetbike
fortune
mind war
guide
spirit stone
Ghelm+RoWi
singing spear
Pistol

farseer 216
jetbike
mind war
eldrich storm
guide
spirit stone
Ghelm+RoWi
Wblade+pistol

warlock 70
jetbike
enhance
singing spear
Pistol

warlock 65
jetbike
embolden
singing spear
Pistol

warlock 70
jetbike
destructor
singing spear
Pistol

warlock 36
jetbike
Total 661
---------------------------
TRP
5x guard def 72
2x flamer
warlock
destructor

HA/Transport
Falcon 220
starcannon
holofield
spirit stone
CTM
Total 292
--------------------------
TRP
5x guard def 72
2x flamer
warlock
destructor

HA/Transport
Falcon 220
starcannon
holofield
spirit stone
CTM
Total 292
--------------------------
FA
3xshiningspear 205
exarch
bright lance
evade 205
--------------------------
FA
vyper 100
EML
CTM

FA
vyper 100
EML
CTM
Total 200
--------------------------
FA
vyper 100
EML
CTM

FA
vyper 100
EML
CTM
Total 200
--------------------------
Grand Total 1850

Basically will guide my vypers, deal with anything that can hunt down/hurt my tanks then start in on the infantry with missiles and flamer squads... will be moving my vypers to support the jetseer squad unless they need to venture too far forward without cover. I also need to create names and background for all of this before I can play.

Any comments would be apreciated

[Esque]

tough as nails it seems, I dont have the codex with me, but you cant have flamers in guardian defender squads? I take it this is storm guardians?

So, well... Besides that youre putting too much stuff on the farseers. Dont put mind war on a seer with a singing spear. Its used in stead of shooting, both of them. Limit powers to two pr seer. Should save you points enough to equip the last warlock. As far as I recall, 1 power pr warlock is mandatory. Correct me if Im wrong...

EML's would likely not be best fitted on vypers, hitting on 4+ Take starcannons in stead!

It looks absolutely lethal! Needs tweaking though. Note that in escalation, when using falcons, your guardians and your falcons may not be available for coordinated deployment, destroying the concept of the army. Using dedicated transports would remove this weakness.

Esq

[IAmAngel.]

HQ

Your first Farseer is way overloaded. Slim him down, and you definatley don't need 3 psychic powers.

Your second Farseer is also overloaded. You don't need Eldrich Storm, it's a waste of pts. You should also take off at least 1 more psychic power.

I would at least give your last warlock a pistol and ccw.

TRP

Your first troop choice looks pretty good. However, either stick with Holo Field and Spirit Stones, or CTM. Don't take both, because you will be wasting pts. I suggest sticking with Holo Field and Spirit Stones because a Falcon can be hard to hide. CTM is best suited for Vypers.

FA

I wouldn't reccomend Shining Spears. They are very expensive for what they do, but if your set on taking them then go ahead.

For your Vypers, switch out the EML's for Starcannons. It's more reliable due to the Vypers low BS.

Goodluck,
Ben

[Yriel of Iyanden]

Hi Pathius,

Your list looks very fun to play- it's Mech with attitude- a lot of high STR weapons, remarkable speed, and it's got "pop-up" attack written all over it.

That said, I firmly believe you can get this type of performance out of your list for far cheaper, and IMHO, unless you are dead set on having two falcons I'd make this list a Saim Hann list so that speedy and fluffy go hand-in-hand. When I'm feelin mech- my Saim Hann army is the one I reach for, and it'll give you a solid theme to build around. Not to mention it gives most of your vehicles and jetbikes the skillful rider skill for free, which is a huge bonus for a mech army.

I'll build you a list that you can either declare Saim Hann or not, which can pump out some brutal firepower

Let's have a look at your list:

HQ 1 and 2: I'm with IAmAngel here (Karmic! +1). Your seers are way pricey, and can achieve similar results at a fraction of the cost. If you are completely sold on running two Farseers I'd run one fortuneseer and one guideseer. Have a look:

Fortuneseer 123pts
Mind War
Fortune
Jetbike
Singing Spear

Guideseer 96pts
Guide
Jetbike
Runes of Witnessing
Shuriken Pistol

That's only 219pts I've spent on HQ, and I have defined roles for each seer. The Fortuneseer will boost your Shining Spears/Jetbikes and provide anti-character and armor in the same package. The Guideseer will ensure you get some decent return from your Vypers or possibly your Falcons.

Troops

You've spent next to nothing on troops. This is min/maxing on a standard list, and not so grievous on a Wildrider host (in fact it's pretty useful). I for one LOVE triple flamer stormies, and there's no better army to field them than Saim Hann. Frankly though, I'd beef the units just a hair and give them dedicated transports like Esque says so that you don't get stranded on the field (not to mention you get these excellent fighting platforms out of them).

Check it out...

Triple Flamer Stormies - 233pts
6x Storm Guardians
2x Flamers
Warlock
Witchblade and Shuriken Pistol
Destructor

In Wave Serpent,
Twin linked Brightlances
Spirit Stones

x 2 would give you 466pts on troops. Now you're sporting 4 flamers, 2 heavy flamers, and 2 witchblades for dreadnoughts and the like in addition to 2 very reliable Brightlance platforms. Notice I didn't put CTM's on them- this is because it's simply unlikely that you'll have enough level 3 terrain to hide all of your skimmers, and using a CTM is counter-productive to deploying your transported units. Wave Serpents with Spirit stones are fine, and should get you across the field reliably while helping with amored targets.

Fast Attack

This is what made me think Saim Hann. You're loaded up on FA, taking 4 Vypers and a unit of Shining Spears. Declare this a Wildrider Host and your options open up tremendously. Your Shining Spears are perfect as is, you just need to adjust the points to 201 I believe.

3 Shining Spears 201
exarch
bright lance
evade

Now, imagine this unit running with your Fortuneseer. Now you have re-rollable saves (including that permanent re-rollable save on the Exarch), a VERY reliable anti-tank unit with a Brightlance AND a Singing Spear, anti-character, oh and did I mention a charge that includes Laser Lances? A very, very tough unit to break and small and slippery enough to keep away from danger.

Now think about what we've done so far. We have 3 Brightlances, 2 hitting at 75%, one at 84%, and a Singing Spear hitting at 84%, and we haven't even added the Falcon yet! Therefore, I'm going to break up your Vypers to take full advantage of a Saim Hann FoC, and load them up with cheap and reliable dakka for MEQ death and general mayhem. Check it out:

Vyper with Starcannon 65pts

x4 Different units = 260pts

That means we still have one Fast Attack Slot open. I want to give you some more options- more mobile dakka and another unit that your Fourtuneseer may back up, if he so desires

6 Jetbikes 250pts
2x Shuriken Cannons

Feel free to add a warlock to the unit, but I think they're fine as is. I run this very same unit as the core of my Saim Hann army to excellent effect. They are downright deadly with the fortuneseer, and honestly I'd rather run him with this unit and let the Shining Spears go on their own tankhunting.

So now...let's add our Falcon. I like yours:

Heavy Support

Falcon 220pts

Starcannon
Spirit Stone
Holofield
CTM

Again, the CTM is optional. Many people prefer CTM's on Vypers, but I've used them on Falcons to decent effect, and I like having this anchor the entire army, hanging back with a guideseer that can really make all of its guns devastating.

So this puts our list at 1616 pts. You could very well add a third triple flamer unit of death which would put you squarely at 1849, in which case I'd use twin-linked starcannons instead of brightlances- you already have plenty of those.

Another thought is to take the jetbike bodyguard, but you can swap out the regular jetbike squad if you wanted to do this. I'd take a mounted scorpion unit or a Warp Spider unit, personally, for more horde-killing power and decent countercharge. It's up to you!

Give Saim Hann a thought and let us know what you think!

[Pathius]

My main reason for getting the spirit stones and holo fields on EVERY tank was because I almost always lose the round 1 roll. Without moving my skimmers are pretty vunerable to heavy weapons. I find that in most games I can hide 2 tanks and some smaller units behind wood, which is why I went with 2 falcons. I have the wave serpents and keep toying with lotsa serpents instead of the falcons but then I have to use my fire prism, and I hate having to guide that thing.

I agree I get a bit carried away on my HQ jetbike squad, but so far this squad has yet to disapoint. My main problem is I am somewhat used to Ulthwe and having tons of powers at my disposal to fit every situation. I find I end up missing the tactical flexibility that all the powers and spirit stones give me.

I did mess up on the guardians, was susposed to be storm guardians with the flamers. I am trying to get away from running troops. I have something like 150 guardian defenders and 50 or so storm, and I have a history of swarming the table with my little men o war. This list and others that follow will be me trying to break out of some old habits.

I concider puttin the fortuneseer with the brightlance on a daily basis but am not sure that a 2+ bright lance hit is worth it.

I was planning on negating the bad BS of the vypers with the double guides from the seer squad. Then they can hit troops or infantry. Again I am trying to expand some tactical flexibility by moving away from star cannons...soooo hard to do.

As for the mind war and Sspear, I figure if I am facing a tank I need the spear, and if troops well thats what mind war is for. Also I play against some hordy armies and eldrich storm has been worth its weight in gold against them. Sigh, see its that flexibility problem again.

Usually I try to use my flamer squads to repulse assaults instead of assault. My army mostly hops in and out of cover/line of fire and shoots as you advance. The jetbike squad takes care of tanks, while the rest concentrates fire on portions of the enemys army. I attempt to win the movement phase and shooting phase.

Anyhow thanks for all the suggestions I will try some of them out. Please do not think because I "argued/explained" my thinking that I am dismissing your comments. I apreciate seeing things from all angles and diversity in groups helps grow knowledge.

[Esque]

Is sounds like youve been thinking over all of the tips at least I have been giving you. That would be a good thing. I merely point out the cost/effectiveness of the starcannons on a BS3, vs a EML on a BS3. Sounds like you got it all covered in your experience, which entirely puts the army into a new perspective.

I would be rather confident though, that you could easily tool down at least one seer in order to equip the last warlock.

Im a big fan of EML's, I just have a hard time seing them come to a good use if they dont have a decent rate of fire! But let it loose and let it have a go, then post how you did with it!

[Pathius]

I have been trying to fit the EMLs in to my list because I often play an infantry heavy tau opponent to a mechanised IG army to a Vanilla SMurf, all with the same list in a weekend. We are having a 6 player match up this saturday, round robin, 3 games at a time. I am still deciding on this list <with some mods, I am going to take off the eldritch storm>, or the USF force I have been mauling over for the last day. Thanks again for the advice, I am relatively new to 4th addition so forgive me if I ask some dumb questions<I will "search" for the answers before of course> Oh, the logic behind the one jetbike without eq, is he is a "cheap" wound soak for the squad. The most I have ever lost with the squad in a game was 2 models, but I commonly loose one because my friends tanks hate the spears. If those bikes weren't so damn manueverable I am sure they would die quickly.

[Yriel of Iyanden]

Hey Pathius,

Sounds good man. I'm glad you explained the Ulthwe' background for us, it helps us understand why you have a tendancy to go pricey on the Farseers. Honestly- you want to use whatever works for you, and if this is workin- go for it!

I think you can strike a balance between "slim and effective" and "pricey but versatile" simply by playtesting things. I tend to lean towards suggesting more units rather than fewer multi-capable units, as that's been one my marks of success, but perhaps in your group you are finding different ways to be successful. That's what these forums are all about- we can teach each other new things all the time!

I rarely, rarely get first turn. But I still take stock vypers, with the main caveat being that I only take 36" or longer weaponry on them. Then I sit them deep in my deployment zone, which ensures my opponent has to waste "true" heavy weapons and tanks to get them, and protects them from basic weapon fire. I just think upgrades are next to pointless on AR10 open-topped, the upgrades cost nearly as much as another Vyper.

What colors are your craftworld? Have you developed any fluff yet? I'd like to hear more!

[Kiirnodel]

Originally Posted by Yriel of Iyanden

I just think upgrades are next to pointless on AR10 open-topped, the upgrades cost nearly as much as another Vyper.

Yeah, I hope they do stuff like this in the next Codex:

Holofield - X/X - 10
Spirit Stones - Y/Y - 5

For the Vyper upgrades.

I've noticed a distinct lack of aspect warriors, have you considered using them? I've yet to play a match without them and it works wonders. You do have Shining Spears, but I'm always too reluctant to use them. A squad of six warp spiders seem to work well for mobility, rapid fire and moving out, as well as fitting a theme with more 'warp' in it, since Farseers seem to give that idea anyways.

I'd like to hear more about your craftworld as well.

[Deathguard]

Dude, as many have said, your Farseers are simply too big.* Like what would happen if your farseers got charged by 2 max. squads of Genestealers (accurse those Xenos), hormaguants, or Orks?*
Ever try this?

Avatar x2
4 Squads of 15 Storm Guardians (Plasma & Krak G. + Flamer x2) (Add a Warlock with Witch Blades & either Enhance or Conceal)
5 man Dark Reaper Squads (Exarch with Fast Shot & EML) x2
Wraithlord with EML

Then you can throw in assorted Vypers (For anti-tank) & Aspects to support
Alternatively, if your playing a low Ld army (Orks), the switch the Dark Reapers for Rangers, because they can cause pinning, allowing your Guardians to charge instead of getting CHARGED

Many don't like this army, but i've used it to wicked affect too many times to doubt it