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So about these Daemons...
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Old 02 May 2010, 02:17   #11 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: So about these Daemons...

Heya,

If you want to know about some of the things in the book for you to start off, I suggest that you read some of these;
Dath Path: Daemons Tactica
A competitive view of Chaos Daemon units

And also this you must tell to your friend at least;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisis_Vyper
I would say not exactly the best choice for a beginner. To begin with they are considerably more fragile than most armies out there, and also you need to have a good grasp of some more advanced rules when it comes to their deployment and play style less be screwed more often than those that started on armies that are generally more forgiving (example: Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines). Not to mention that you need a certain flair when you play around with daemons, for it is not the best sit-around army there is, but generally is considered one of the more violent and bloody armies around.

If your friend is on a budget to start, that would really be a disadvantage for him as most Daemon model are metal through and through and this often means that they will be expensive. This totally would bulk up the pricing when you realized that daemons must be taken in medium-large sized squads to be effective. As for the assembly work, it wold be a significant challenge to your friends to assemble them for the smaller models tend to be too small for pinning to allow stability and added support. Ironically, it is precisely that they are metal that they would be the most forgiving when it comes to painting, for you can always dip them in thinner whenever you feel like the model is painted rather badly and needs a repaint.

But if you want to start them as your first army, then be prepared to suffer a lot of disappointments during your initial few games, sometimes as many as 20+ games losing before you get a decent working of the daemons list. Once you get the hang of it, they are rather intimidating to fight against.
As compared with most Mono-god lists, Mono-Tzeetch is the most potent one. Here's what I tend to say to everyone whenever they asked for Tzeentchian daemons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisis_Vyper
Alright welcome to Tzeentch Daemon 101. I also use a pure Tzeentchian daemon force as well, so I am very qualified. :P

Tzeentch's shooting abilities are shooting attacks, not psychic powers. So they can fire with impunity and cause much hurt with their horrors, flamers and heralds. As for anti-tank, Tzentch is the one to take due to the availability of a lot of AP1, meltabombs and the ultimate flamer attack ( always wounds and glance models on 4+, no armour or cover saves allowed) that one can put into their list. This also effectively made them the most competitive mono-god list (I got to semis with them before, only losing because of a single objective being contested). People cry when they fire their weapons, and generally they can put a lot of hurt. Tzeentch is also unique that they can be the most mobile Daemon army as it has essentially the only jump packer and jetbikers in the whole of the codex, in the form of flamers for the former and chariots and screamers for the latter. So they can become your flankers and objective contesters, with the capabilities to kill things with ease.

As for the special characters, the Blue scribes are alright, and the changeling is something of a must-put unit. The Fateweaver is essentially one of the best support HQs that you can get. Rerolling all friendly saves is a boon, and add that with it having all the Tzeench powers in tow he is superior to the normal lord of change in abilities.

For the Heralds take a chariot, Master of Sorcery,We Are Legion and a Bolt of Tzeentch, and you can have an extremely mobile gun platform that can annoy a hell lot of targets as it has 5 wounds, moves like jetbike, and can split-fire two weapons to two different targets. They are also a good place to put your icons if you got space for them as they are so durable.

Soulgrinders tend to help a lot in making the Tzeentch Daemons even more of a headache since it complements the abilities of the rest of the army just fine. Daemon princes can also help in the sense that they are essentially the counterassaulters. I would suggest that the Daemon princes be armed with just a bolt of tzeentch, Mark of Tzeentch, and also unholy might. It is cheap as it is effective in bringing down stuff as an anti-tanker.

Flamers are the obligatory unit that one must take because they are that good. But in a game 3 for each squad is more than necessary as they tend to kill everything in their path once they start putting down the template. Add that with the fact that they are jump infantry makes them really frightening.
It takes a while to get used to the Daemons idea, as I discovered.

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Old 02 May 2010, 22:33   #12 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: So about these Daemons...

Thank you crisis viper, lots of very informative information within those links. And thank you everybody else of course for all your helpful input. ;D
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Old 16 Jun 2010, 00:18   #13 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: So about these Daemons...

I have to say that I disagree with a lot of the advice in the posted tacticas. Now take that with the usual grain of salt. I also believe that only mixed lists are remotely competitive in 5ed so I would not suggest a mono list. I'm pretty sure I'm going to take a lot of flak here. So why do I say this?

Daemons have a problem in 5ed. They have very little AT and they have problems against a fully meched out list. I recently played a Razor spam/baal list with meph and had a very tough time. There are good reasons for this. First, we have terrible AT on the whole at 1500 and below. Once we get to increase [points we can add in DPs or Grinders to help out. At 1500 the list is quite tight. The second problem is winning fiorst turn and relying on decent scatters and good reserve rolls. When things work pout you are golden. When they don't you are fighting an uphill battle.

So I will list what units are useful against mech and why ...

I don't like the special HQs. You want to play Thirster, skulltaker or a Fatecrusher list at 1500 go for it. I don't even like them much at 2000. Once your opponet focuses hies fire at an obvious priority target the game is done. Mech lists can do that and keep out of charge range.

So what is good? Hweralds of Slaanesh on Chariots. Sheralds are the best buy in our codex for HQs. You can use up to four so two at 1750 or less and four over that. Don''t skimp here. Sure other HQs might be more powerful but at the point cost these guys have the attack range, wounds and assault capability to make your opponent cringe. Always take musk and might.

What next. There are plenty of good elite choices. But again ... we are living in a meched up environment ( unless your playing against 4ed lists disguised as 5ed ). Most lists have a lot of mobility and range. Bloodcrushers and flamers are good but ...
Never leave home without three ... yes three squads of fiends with might. This is the base of your fast attacking AT. They will take down anything but 14+ and they can glance that. They are also infanrtry killers that can Hit and Run and move 3D6. Are you kidding me? These guys rock. The downside ... the models suck. Yes they are truly ugly.

So troops. Yes Deamonettes can do damage and so can 'Letters. They are also slow and really, I have other squads to do damage. What I need is cheap troops to camp on an objective. Wait we have the best troops for that. Squads of five plaguebearers are dirt cheap. Take Letters or Deamonettes if it suits you. I'll stick with durable troops and know I'm going to score.

I ran out of space for fiends. That's okay because I can still get fast cav in hounds. Yep, one wound. Yep, the4y do go down to rapid fire but they have a very good save and you can and should add Karanak to a squad. Again, this is about range of attack and effectiveness per point. Use Scereamers if you like. I'll take hopunds hands down.

Now you are probably at 1500 already with the above squads. When you decide to go higher you will have some choices to make. You can add heavy slots or you can just add more of the same - more Heralds more hounds. You could add two Grinders with phlegm - nothing like a DSing monolith in a daemon list. It gets trickier here depending on what you expect to see. However, I prefer DPs. A Nurgle DP w/ Flight and Might can put the hurt on tanks and has the mobility to chase and catch. Tzeentch shooty DPs are not bad either. I still like the wings as a general rule though. You have to vbe careul with DPs - you don't want to make them more expensive then an HQ but it seems a good build ciuld cost a little less than Land Raider. Still it is a nice option and I use them.

So that's my quick and dirty synopsis on daemons. Now go and build a list you like.


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Old 17 Jun 2010, 00:17   #14 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: So about these Daemons...

XX, I have to say that reviving a thread that is dead for a while is not the way to go, and instead a newer post should be posted instead. However, I will let this go by.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xx
I have to say that I disagree with a lot of the advice in the posted tacticas. Now take that with the usual grain of salt. I also believe that only mixed lists are remotely competitive in 5ed so I would not suggest a mono list. I'm pretty sure I'm going to take a lot of flak here. So why do I say this?
The tacticas are there as a reference, not a solve-it-all and from what I can read from 40k enthusiast's post, it is made during the time where land raider spam is not really common. In addition, some of these tacticas are made during 4th edition but with 5th ed in mind. It is meant to be taken with a pinch of salt.

All-God list is good, but needs a certain synergy to it. Mono is easier in a sense, but it is harder as they lack in a lot of things. It's just like Eldar in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xx
So what is good? Hweralds of Slaanesh on Chariots. Sheralds are the best buy in our codex for HQs. You can use up to four so two at 1750 or less and four over that. Don''t skimp here. Sure other HQs might be more powerful but at the point cost these guys have the attack range, wounds and assault capability to make your opponent cringe. Always take musk and might.

What next. There are plenty of good elite choices. But again ... we are living in a meched up environment ( unless your playing against 4ed lists disguised as 5ed ). Most lists have a lot of mobility and range. Bloodcrushers and flamers are good but ...
Never leave home without three ... yes three squads of fiends with might. This is the base of your fast attacking AT. They will take down anything but 14+ and they can glance that. They are also infanrtry killers that can Hit and Run and move 3D6. Are you kidding me? These guys rock. The downside ... the models suck. Yes they are truly ugly.
Glancing is nothing much, and when the vehicle moves 12" it becomes a little but harder to bust it open. They work well enough, but nonetheless theyb are fragile and they face heavy competition in the elites with the flamers and bloodcrushers.

Slaaneshi heralds is something people do not see often, but then that saying every place got its own metagame that allows for some builds to be much better than others. So even if I wanted to say anything, I do not know the metagame of the mechanized scene in your area xx. Mine is filled with Stormravens, Landraiders and falcons. It is rare to see a normal rhino army, which given the opportunity the slaaneshi daemons would find it fun to play against.
Quote:
So troops. Yes Deamonettes can do damage and so can 'Letters. They are also slow and really, I have other squads to do damage. What I need is cheap troops to camp on an objective. Wait we have the best troops for that. Squads of five plaguebearers are dirt cheap. Take Letters or Deamonettes if it suits you. I'll stick with durable troops and know I'm going to score.
Plaguebearers are good objective holders that's undeniable, but these days with the painful units like Death companies and poisoned weapons on gaunts, they would actually go down faster than expected. But as they say everything can be killed, just that the right method is applied. Personally I rather kill as much of the attacker as possible rather than weathering out the blows.
Quote:
I ran out of space for fiends. That's okay because I can still get fast cav in hounds. Yep, one wound. Yep, the4y do go down to rapid fire but they have a very good save and you can and should add Karanak to a squad. Again, this is about range of attack and effectiveness per point. Use Scereamers if you like. I'll take hopunds hands down.
With the Land Raiders, Stormravens, and Rhinos, it is actually much better to take screamers and seekers. At least with the seekers they can destory vehicles while they glance their way though one (even though it is hard to do). Bloodhounds are nice, but seekers are better for that role. Screamers are there as jetbikers who contest objectives and if opportunity arises, bust vehicles. Nothing more nothing less.

Quote:
Now you are probably at 1500 already with the above squads. When you decide to go higher you will have some choices to make. You can add heavy slots or you can just add more of the same - more Heralds more hounds. You could add two Grinders with phlegm - nothing like a DSing monolith in a daemon list. It gets trickier here depending on what you expect to see. However, I prefer DPs. A Nurgle DP w/ Flight and Might can put the hurt on tanks and has the mobility to chase and catch. Tzeentch shooty DPs are not bad either. I still like the wings as a general rule though. You have to vbe careul with DPs - you don't want to make them more expensive then an HQ but it seems a good build ciuld cost a little less than Land Raider. Still it is a nice option and I use them.
This one I would not mind either the soul grinder or the DP. My Daemon prince is extremely cheap for what it does.

Daemon prince
Mark of tzeentch
Unholy might
Bolt of tzeentch

Total pts: 160 pts

I just plan for it to be a huge moving turret that would harass with impunity. People would be shooting a myriad of weapons at it, and for some reason Hgh strength low AP weapons are the order of the day, which is why I just opt for an invul save than anything else. In addition, since it is already teleporting in, I might as well just save up on the wings and land it where it matters. Bolt of tzeentch? Back armour sniping, and anything which is alone. If opportunity arises, I just charge into vehicles or crippled units and go about ripping the remnants of that unit. If it dies, it dies but at least it can do a hell a lot of distraction.

The point cost of the wings can be used to buy some other units, and in this case I could spend it on a few objective grabbers and/or alpha units to make things more interesting. 3 Wing upgrades is 180 pts, and that is more than enough to buy any daemon unit that do the job.

But quick, simple and dirty for you can be a bitch of a style for another player. Likewise, the way I play my mono-tzeentch is quite literally more agressive than most player would want to play their very fragile units, but it works for me. So I would say everything that is said here for both your post and mine should be taken with a pinch of salt and the better judgement is left onto the Daemon player to go about their list-making.


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Old 17 Jun 2010, 15:25   #15 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: So about these Daemons...

Hmmm. I might concider that daemon prince build with a bolt of tzeench.

I wanted to throw in my 2 cents is that nurgle in 5th isn't a really good unit against a knowledgable player. I've found they can't really hurt anything and things like large str 10 or ap2 weapons kill them rather easy. If your fnp is denied than you might as well had been playing with other daemons.

So far I'm liking the other three groups really well. I think a mix list will do better than a mono list.

Tzeentch: I find this element is very good against guard and tau. Also the ability to move and shoot makes this element one of the better out of all the daemons. It can shoot when dsing and can avoid combat.

Slaanash: Very good anti Eldar unit. This element have grenades and the keeper with 7 attacks on the charge is nice. Fleet, rending, frag and defensive grenades, plus high int is very good.

Khorne: Favorite unit is the juggernauts simply due to wound allocation and very tough and destructive. This element is good against orcs and marines. It's tough to play these guys cause you want to get the charge first. Which is hard to do coming out of dsing. Also transports make it hard to assault first. All power weapon attacks what's not to like.

Nurgle: Unless you have the tallyman it's really not worth playing. Even with him if he winds up coming out on the 5th turn than it's a waste of points. I like Ku'gath simply cause he can lay waste to a huge amount of troops. Also the nurgle prince build is pretty nice. Also nurglings isn't a bad unit choice. I would give nurglings the title best swarm simply due to invul save and can't be instant killed.
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Old 18 Jun 2010, 00:44   #16 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: So about these Daemons...

Quote:
XX, I have to say that reviving a thread that is dead for a while is not the way to go, and instead a newer post should be posted instead. However, I will let this go by.
Appreciated. There does seem to be some renewed interest though.

Quote:
In addition, some of these tacticas are made during 4th edition but with 5th ed in mind. It is meant to be taken with a pinch of salt.
As are all my opinions, btw. I'm no guru.

Quote:
Personally I rather kill as much of the attacker as possible rather than weathering out the blows.
Different philosophies. I still like the PBs. If push comes to shove they will hold up a unit until your DP or Herald arrives to finish them off.

Quote:
They work well enough, but nonetheless theyb are fragile and they face heavy competition in the elites with the flamers and bloodcrushers.
I really feel thet Fiends are by far the best elites in 5ed. I know the Fatecrusher craze but I've tabled Fatecrusher with my IG twice. Of coourse, IG is a nightmare match up for Daemons anyway, I admit. If there isn't sufficient terrain, which is all too common, you might as well pack up and concede. I won't play IG with less then the minimum amount of terrain.

Quote:
Bloodhounds are nice, but seekers are better for that role.
Both have their pros and cons. I've just renewed my interest in Seekers and have added them yo my newest list. So I won't disagree here.

Quote:
Daemon prince
Mark of tzeentch
Unholy might
Bolt of tzeentch

Total pts: 160 pts
Very nice at 1500 points. I still use the Nurgle one though as I play a Nurgle/Slaanesh list now - dropped hounds for Seekers as I mentioned ...

DP, MoN, Touch, Cloud, Might, Wings 215

A tad expensive but as good as any HQ at the same cost although KoS with Soporific is a viable alternative.

Quote:
Nurgle: Unless you have the tallyman it's really not worth playing.
Their DPs and PBs are both really nice additions to a mixed list. I would use Nurglings if they scored but they don't.
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