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What is better? A Daemon Prince or Soul Grinder?
View Poll Results: What is the best ot the two?
Daemon Prince 19 63.33%
Soul Grinder 11 36.67%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09 Apr 2010, 03:09   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default What is better? A Daemon Prince or Soul Grinder?

Hello to the dead board. Anyway I wanted to hear from differant people which unit above is better. The nurgle talleyman should be excempt from reasoning a daemon prince. I want to know in general which one is better to use.

IMO I'm going with the grinder due to the battlecannon, str 10 attacks, fleet, assault 6 and armour 13 for front and side. It's good at range and decent in hand to hand. It dishes out more fire power than a prince and does more damage in hand to hand. Str 7 and higher monsterous creatures, eviserators, chainfist, and meltas is this guys weak point.
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Old 09 Apr 2010, 04:40   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: What is better? A Daemon Prince or Soul Grinder?

I really want to like the soulgrinder, but I had to vote daemon prince. The grinder is an awesome model, and much fewer points than a DP, but it has a couple of pretty severe problems. First, it isn't particularly good at either assault or shooting. It's deadly in assault against fairly squishy targets, but it will quickly get clobbered if there's a powerfist in there, and it can't stand up to a dreadnaught or most other walkers. I do like the blast weapon, but its ballistic skill is too low to effectively use the railtongue. It's other problem is that there is always a meltagun somewhere. Other players keep telling me to get the grinder close and into assault, but I can never do that without taking a melta between the eyes! I have to vote Daemon Prince (although I don't like the model) because that melta shot is only going to make it mad, and might not even do that since the DP gets an invulnerable save. A DP with Mark of Khorne and Unholy Might has about as good a chance of killing a land raider in melee as the grinder does, but far better odds of surviving to get there!
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Old 09 Apr 2010, 06:48   #3 (permalink)
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Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: What is better? A Daemon Prince or Soul Grinder?

I always run my Flying Nurgle-Prince and my Phlegm/Tongue Grinder. The general strategy for the Grinder is to come in, drop a pie plate on something rude, and then spend the rest of the game trying to get more kills in while all the big guns are pointed at it. The Flying prince comes in, BoC's something, then spends the rest of the game jumping from squad to squad killing things. You use your Prince for dropping fists and enemy MCs (at least, thats what Nurgle Princes do, wound on 2+ is dead killy on enemy MCs). The Grinder WILL rip up groups, not many things can stand up to a Phlegm and then a charge from a pissed off Crabwalker Daemon. It's good for taking down enemy fire bases, and some of our only non-melee antitank outside of Tzeentch.
Another thing to consider is your alignment. Grinders mean much more to Khorne and Nurgle than to Tzeentch, and IMO Slaanesh anything Princes blow.
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Old 09 Apr 2010, 07:38   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: What is better? A Daemon Prince or Soul Grinder?

While Knightperson pegged some of the issues around them (most notably that one shot can do it in vs. the Prince) I think the PF was over-stated, while it can threaten the Grinder it only pens on a six for marines the three attacks back are unlikely to do the grinder in on the first turn imo. After needing to hit, three attacks looks mighty small when you need sixes. :P


That being said, you and he both pegged the bonuses of the Grinder as well to the point that there's nothing I can add on that.


I think a daemon army should have both tbh. MC's are needed, but Grinders are one of my first picks to place in the army imo as well. Since I like the both of them, I'm going to go with the Grinder because of the cost and Phlegm, which is helpful in it's own right.

I really like both, you have no idea how hard it is to just pick one. If this was truly an all or nothing pick, then the list better be damned good to ignore either one. XD
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Old 12 Apr 2010, 04:25   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: What is better? A Daemon Prince or Soul Grinder?

The size of the model of the soul grinder is its greatest disadvantage. 5Th Ed game mechanics hurts this model (as well as every larger model in being used in 40K) in game play.

And as stated before, I am most happy when people bring in a Soul grinder into play. Regardless of what army I am playing in.

IMHO, the Daemon Prince is more resilient and have choices of options and variety of game play.
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Old 12 Apr 2010, 05:41   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is better? A Daemon Prince or Soul Grinder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemonette Embrace
The size of the model of the soul grinder is its greatest disadvantage. 5Th Ed game mechanics hurts this model (as well as every larger model in being used in 40K) in game play.

And as stated before, I am most happy when people bring in a Soul grinder into play. Regardless of what army I am playing in.

IMHO, the Daemon Prince is more resilient and have choices of options and variety of game play.
I don't think it's that much of a problem, you could just set the Grinder behind a wall or some other terrain so that he's covered up to his pecs, he'll be obscured, but the guns in his mouth so the baddies won't be obscured from him
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Old 14 Apr 2010, 04:51   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: What is better? A Daemon Prince or Soul Grinder?

This is pretty close race here. I might just go with both. But I'm going to list some pros and cons about both.

-soul grinder-
a. Ranged weapons 4
1. X6 str 4 shots
2. Str 6 flamer
3. Mini railgun
4. Mini battlecannon

This unit can dishout some devestating fire power.

4 str 10 attacks

Armour 13 second best armour n the game with rear 11

immune to shaken and stun results. So 1-2 on a pen does nothing and a 1-4 on a glance does nothing as well.

Good weapon platform at range and up close. Tongue suffers from low bs.

Some disadvatages:

a weapon destroyed can take out 3 weapons with one shot
can be killed with one shot.
Low bs.

Most melée weapons won't hurt this unit. A chainfist and eviserator are pretty much the only melée it has to really worry about.

Melta guns would make for a bad day.

Daemon Prince:

Well it's very easy to not have the exact same dp. But let's look at what an average prince has.

High ws which is double than grinder
High bs which is almost double than grinder
Average str which is half grinder
Has 4 wounds which means it can last a bit
high int which means it can hit targets before grinder
same attacks as grinder
decent invul save which can be better.

At base cost a prince is pretty cheap. But with decent upgrades like hide, marks, powers, etc. The cost easily skyrockets and easily cost as much or even more than grinder.

The prince can have 4 differant range attacks as well. But besides the flame weapon you're looking at more precise shooting. More on single targets than for mass targets.

Without going to much on the differant abilities and such. Most would argue a winged nurgle prince is the end all of most units. But the highest toughness is a 6. So while a single melta can kill a gringer. The prince is more vulnerable in close combat than a grinder.

I'm going to give a few examples.
- any str 3 or higher model can hurt a prince. Even str 2 can hurt a regular prince. With enough mob attacks a prince can go down rather easy especally poison

- A grinder can only be hurt with str 7 and above attacks. Str 8 and above is the only ones going to do anything. Meltabombs is slim due to needing 6s to even hit. Immune to poison attacks.

1. So the first two points cover most 40k models. A prince can die to lucky fire warriors while a grinder would just swat them away. Also str 8 attacks actually hurt the daemon on a 2. So saying a prince is better against fist than a grinder isn't true.

2. The same is with shooting. Your prince can go down to normal shooting. Boltguns almost any weapon in the game can wound a prince. While you'll need autocannons to even phase a grinder.

- poison nurgle wounds on +2 or +d6 against vehicles.
- in regular 40k the highest toughness model is 8. So the grinder wounds on 2S.

1. On average a grinder would be hitting vehicles at 13 while a max prince would average 13 as well. But the prince have a higher ws and I which would make him better than the grinder in this. But that's throwing in nurgle mark powers and a str boost. Taking out the boosting the grinder would do better overall against high toughness and vehicles in combat.

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Old 18 Apr 2010, 17:17   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: What is better? A Daemon Prince or Soul Grinder?

im not really sure what I think. i have a budding daemon army that I started after I got pwned by a chaos daemons army, and I've been trying to decide which ones I want in my 2000 point list. any suggestions? they both seem pretty great, and I would take both if I could fit them.
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Old 18 Apr 2010, 17:42   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is better? A Daemon Prince or Soul Grinder?

I just picked up my second Grinder, and I love him
Last game I played, against Dark Eldar, my grinder tanked over 16 Dark Lances, it was beastly.
Using Grinders all comes down to knowing how to protect them.
Your opponent will fear them, because they deserve to be feared, and will likely over devote resources to killing it. By putting it in a position where it can survive, you are forcing your opponent to throw away shots that should be aimed at dropping Blood Crushers or Daemon Princes
Daemon Princes are also nice, although I'm a little miffed at mine for dying to Dark Lances second turn, because they give you two things your army will lack; AT and speed. Wings allow you to not only cover a large swath of the field, but also let you put your prince into a safer position to start, since you know you can jump over that wall next turn you can hide behind it. And being an MC you will be rolling 2d6 for armour penetration, making it one of your sole sources of Land Raider killing power. The Rail Tongue can do it but it misses half the time, so it's unreliable.
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Old 19 Apr 2010, 14:35   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: What is better? A Daemon Prince or Soul Grinder?

16 Dark Lances should not be the mileage everyone expects out of any vehicle. :sadnshocked:

That's a beautiful thing to hear, moreso to see, but that's a crazy amount of firepower for anything to have a statistical chance at going through (maybe not the Monolith, but still).
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