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Picking Your Brains
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Old 25 Feb 2010, 20:40   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Picking Your Brains

Hey guys,

First off, no, I'm not going heretic. This is about my dad who doesn't have an account but has been talking very much lately about a Chaos Daemons army. Specifically, a pure-Tzeentch army. Now, I know that mono-Chaos God armies are generally lacking in variety but they also very heavily themed which appeals to my father. However, a Soul Grinder is tempting to add a little Undivided to the list. :P

I suppose I'm simply looking for pointers about this sort of army. All of the Tzeentch units are pretty cool but I wonder if there are any that should be avoided in favor of others. For example, Screamers. They seem pretty awesome anti-tank but are many of them necessary? Would it be better to spend the points on Horrors and Flamers? Also, the special characters! My dad's test lists include pretty much every guy there is; The Blue Scribes, The Changeling, and Fateweaver, as well as a Herald, possibly on Chariot due to conversion opportunities.

Clearly, this is more of a themed list than anything but he and I don't want to sacrifice competitiveness just for a pretty army. How competitive can a pure Tzeentch army be? 4+ invuls across the board is pretty awesome but it looks like the army is pretty vulnerable to melee opponents of any sort.

And psychic powers. What powers are recommended for the likes of Heralds? Is a Bolt of Tzeentch in the Horror units useful?

[hr]

I might put a test list up later. Right now my dad has really just maximized on every unit he can - the HQ units mentioned above as well as ~30 Horrors, 12 Flamers, 12 Screamers, and a Soul Grinder. Obviously the infantry will be split into units of various sizes and there is still about a 100 points to spend.

Sorry for the discombobulated post. As said, I'll have a list and more questions later. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around and army that I have zero experience playing both with and against.

Thanks guys.
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Old 25 Feb 2010, 22:04   #2 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Picking Your Brains

Alright welcome to Tzeentch Daemon 101. I also use a pure Tzeentchian daemon force as well, so I am very qualified. :P

Tzeentch's shooting abilities are shooting attacks, not psychic powers. So they can fire with impunity and cause much hurt with their horrors, flamers and heralds. As for anti-tank, Tzentch is the one to take due to the availability of a lot of AP1, meltabombs and the ultimate flamer attack ( always wounds and glance models on 4+, no armour or cover saves allowed) that one can put into their list. This also effectively made them the most competitive mono-god list (I got to semis with them before, only losing because of a single objective being contested). People cry when they fire their weapons, and generally they can put a lot of hurt. Tzeentch is also unique that they can be the most mobile Daemon army as it has essentially the only jump packer and jetbikers in the whole of the codex, in the form of flamers for the former and chariots and screamers for the latter. So they can become your flankers and objective contesters, with the capabilities to kill things with ease.

As for the special characters, the Blue scribes are alright, and the changeling is something of a must-put unit. The Fateweaver is essentially one of the best support HQs that you can get. Rerolling all friendly saves is a boon, and add that with it having all the Tzeench powers in tow he is superior to the normal lord of change in abilities.

For the Heralds take a chariot, Master of Sorcery,We Are Legion and a Bolt of TZentch, and you can have an extremely mobile gun platform that can annoy a hell lot of targets as it has 5 wounds, moves like jetbike, and can split-fire two weapons to two different targets. They are also a good place to put your icons if you got space for them as they are so durable.

Soulgrinders tend to help a lot in making the Tzeentch Daemons even more of a headache since it complements the abilities of the rest of the army just fine. Daemon princes can also help in the sense that they are essentially the counterassaulters. I would suggest that the Daemon princes be armed with just a bolt of tzeentch, Mark of Tzeentch, and also unholy might. It is cheap as it is effective in bringing down stuff as an anti-tanker.

Flamers are the obligatory unit that one must take because they are that good. But in a game 3 for each squad is more than necessary as they tend to kill everything in their path once they start putting down the template. Add that with the fact that they are jump infantry makes them really frightening.
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Old 26 Feb 2010, 01:21   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Picking Your Brains

I run a Tzeentch / Khorne alliance, a bit heavier to Tzeentch than Khorne. Horrors are the basic troop, and quite good ones. Useless in assault, of course, but they put out a lot of firepower. I don't find the Bolt of Tzeentch very useful on them because it's only a single shot and their ballistic skill isn't that great. Same goes for the flamers. I absolutely love them, but most people (including me) run them in squads of only three. They are so dangerous that they will be killed the turn after they arrive. Only a minimum-sized squad can be sure to use all their flame templates the turn they come in.

Anti-tank is what gives me trouble with Tzeentch. Flamers are OK, but there are usually better targets for them. My chariot herald of Tzeentch has Bolt, but it rarely does any good. Screamers of Tzeentch seem like a good way to kill vehicles, but they only get one swing, and it might need a 6 to hit. A soulgrinder can have a Strength 8 large blast or a Strength 10 single shot weapon, but with its low ballistic skill it's not a very reliable vehicle-killer until you get it into melee. Since most land raiders or similar targets carry melta, My soulgrinder rarely survives long enough to get into melee range. Smaller vehicles, those with a 10 rear armor, I usually beat to death with Khorne units like bloodletters. To do the same with Tzeentch units, I think you need Daemon Princes or a Lord of Change. Both are good units and have the strength, survivability, and in most cases speed to get close enough to vehicles to kill them in melee.

As CV said, The Changeling is great fun even if he's not effective, and Fateweaver is awesome at high point levels. He's awfully random, though, as is mentioned over in the Most Hated Unit thread. I disagree with CV on the vehicle-killing, though. While I haven't had all that much practice with the Daemons, I have a very hard time killing vehicles with the Tzeentch units. Bolt of Tzeentch isn't reliable, high enough rate of fire, or melta enough to kill large vehicles, and there's never enough Breath of Chaos to go around.
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Old 26 Feb 2010, 09:14   #4 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Picking Your Brains

Quote:
Originally Posted by knightperson
I disagree with CV on the vehicle-killing, though. While I haven't had all that much practice with the Daemons, I have a very hard time killing vehicles with the Tzeentch units. Bolt of Tzeentch isn't reliable, high enough rate of fire, or melta enough to kill large vehicles, and there's never enough Breath of Chaos to go around.
They are fine against most vehicles, but the Land Raider is always a pain. But then that is when Screamers come in with their meltabombs.
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Old 26 Feb 2010, 10:54   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Picking Your Brains

It will not be as competitive as a multi-god army, but tzeentch can be very effective. I got a friend who's been running Chaos Daemons since they came out, and I'll ask him how the best way to go about it. Any question inparticular you have I'll throw his way, but here's a few things I know.

1. Flamers - Absolutely awesome units, but best used in teams of 3-4. Drop them in, fire them off, and they usually make up their point cost right then and there.

2. Screamers - Not a very good unit. Are expensive for what they do, and are somewhat of a suicide rush against vehicles.

3. Daemon Princes - I know my bud runs them with the weapon that has AP3 or 4(forget the weapon, but it's multiple shots), and ALWAYS takes Iron Hide.

4. Fateweaver - Absolutely brutal. He often runs 2 DPs and keeps them close to the Fateweaver. It's a ridiculously hard group to kill.

5. Horrors - Usually run a decent sized squad with a single one running with a Bolt.

-------

I'll get back to you on this though.
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Old 26 Feb 2010, 14:33   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Picking Your Brains

Thanks guys, your responses have been invaluable. I'll post a first draft army list soon.
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Old 02 Mar 2010, 23:09   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Picking Your Brains

Field soulgrinder for mini railgun. For mono tzeench I'll run 2 large troop squads and 4 mini squads. Each mini squad will have the str 8 shoot. Chariots are super good and cheap have to get 2 for the str 8 shots.

Fateweaver is an OK good model. He doesn't do well against a lot of standard fire. He will help your army out lots due to him being a huge fire magnet. My opinion is if you roll above average than you should Field him. Other than that you can spend that many points some where else.

Don't forget the changling ability to have your foe shoot at himself.
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Old 03 Mar 2010, 00:19   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Picking Your Brains

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
Field soulgrinder for mini railgun. For mono tzeench I'll run 2 large troop squads and 4 mini squads. Each mini squad will have the str 8 shoot. Chariots are super good and cheap have to get 2 for the str 8 shots.

Fateweaver is an OK good model. He doesn't do well against a lot of standard fire. He will help your army out lots due to him being a huge fire magnet. My opinion is if you roll above average than you should Field him. Other than that you can spend that many points some where else.

Don't forget the changling ability to have your foe shoot at himself.
I thought you told me you never played Daemons?
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Old 03 Mar 2010, 02:41   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Picking Your Brains

Quote:
Originally Posted by Semaj7
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
Field soulgrinder for mini railgun. For mono tzeench I'll run 2 large troop squads and 4 mini squads. Each mini squad will have the str 8 shoot. Chariots are super good and cheap have to get 2 for the str 8 shots.

Fateweaver is an OK good model. He doesn't do well against a lot of standard fire. He will help your army out lots due to him being a huge fire magnet. My opinion is if you roll above average than you should Field him. Other than that you can spend that many points some where else.

Don't forget the changling ability to have your foe shoot at himself.
I thought you told me you never played Daemons?
I don't have a daemon army but proxies against a few and have friends that play daemons. Tzeench daemons is the best mono army for daemons due to the fact your oppnent have mo clue where you going to show up. Also you basically have cover saves with your +4 invul where you don't have to worry about covet really.

You the one that said daemons is the worst 40k army. I just didn't agree cause I've seen what Tzeench can do. Now nurgle and slaneesh is differant.

But I have to admit I don't play daemons on a regular basis. I proxied 3 times and played against them 8 times and help make a few list for my friends. So I can say I don't play daemons cause I don't own a daemon army. Also I can say I play a tau proxy of tzeench daemons with marine bikes as chariots. Lol.
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Old 19 Mar 2010, 15:59   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Picking Your Brains

Hey guys,

I was writing up some tests lists and just had a question regarding this:

Quote:
For the Heralds take a chariot, Master of Sorcery,We Are Legion and a Bolt of TZentch, and you can have an extremely mobile gun platform that can annoy a hell lot of targets as it has 5 wounds, moves like jetbike, and can split-fire two weapons to two different targets. They are also a good place to put your icons if you got space for them as they are so durable.
From what I can tell, Bolt of Tzeentch (or any shooting attack for that matter) can only be fired once, as detailed under Master of Sorcery's description. Should another shooting attack be taken on this character to justify both We Are Legion and Master of Sorcery or is there a rule I am missing that allows the power to be used twice?
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