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1500 Tzeentch List--Please weigh in
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Old 02 Jun 2010, 06:01   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default 1500 Tzeentch List--Please weigh in


~HQ~
Daemon Prince - Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime, Bolt of Change-200pts

~Troops~
Thousand Sons - x8, x1 Aspiring Sorcerer with WoC, Rhino, Personal Icon - 314pts
Thousand Sons - x8, x1 Aspiring Sorcerer with WoC, Rhino, Personal Icon - 314pts
Summoned Lesser Daemons - x9 - 117pts

~Heavy Support~
Obliterator Cult - x2 Obliterators - 150pts
Obliterator Cult - x1 Obliterators - 75pts
Defiler - x1 DCCW, R-AutoC. - 150pts

--Total--
1320pts

I've been toying with this 1500pts list for quite some time, adding a 2nd daemon prince, dropping the defiler and toying with adding more bodies. I currently would like to add a Lord on a Disc of Tzeentch/wings/ a sorcerer with wings. If i go with the lord, it should have a daemon weapon--since it won't be in terminator armor it can't add much the sorcerer can't besides the unique daemon weapon. The problem occurs when I try to add in the (mandatory in my eyes) 5 man raptor squad to become a quick deadly strike force.

It is a point crunch. I can drop WoC on both 1k sons squads and give them doombolt instead, providing an additional 40pts, giving me 220pts to spend on the 110pt raptors (x5 with 2 flamers) and the lord/sorcerer. I can also drop warptime or bolt of change from the daemon prince, but beyond that I'm stuck. Help me out chaos fans.

What can I drop besides lesser daemons/1k sons ( i like 9 per squad)? An obliterator would solve the problem...but 3 seems perfect from battle experience for that tank busting I need.

Sorcerer or Lord? Sorcerer should have disc/wings, MoT (maybe) and WoC for a flamer killy squad. Lord needs daemon weapon and steed/wings.

Any advice on the list would be great! I hate to drop the defiler, but I could drop it, add 1 more oblit. and use the 75pts towards the HQ? I've gotten to the point where my core does most of the work, and these last points are used for fun and fluff--hence the raptors + HQ.

Thanks!
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Old 05 Jun 2010, 18:48   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: 1500 Tzeentch List--Please weigh in

Haven't been here or posted in a ~year. Dead forum apparently
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Old 05 Jun 2010, 19:04   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: 1500 Tzeentch List--Please weigh in

You need more bodies first of all. With 5th ed infantry capturing, troops are where it's at. I generally try to put at least 50% of my points into troops, and sometimes go as high as 70%. With only 18-27 capturing bodies you'll be hard pressed to hold something in an objectives game.

I'd suggest dropping the defiler and switching to a Tzeentch Lord or Sorcerer, in favor of more troops. IMO you're putting too many points into your HQ and Heavies, and not enough into bodies. The DP's a monster, but you're putting a lot of points into it. Some concentrated fire and it will probably go down. The Defiler's good also, but it's a glass cannon and with so many Meltas around it might not last too long.

So, my suggestions are primarily to add more bodies and cut back on the expensive stuff. I'd also consider switching the Aspiring Sorcerers to DB, since it's a bit cheaper and will allow you a bit more range.
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Old 05 Jun 2010, 20:32   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: 1500 Tzeentch List--Please weigh in

Quote:
Daemon Prince - Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime, Bolt of Change-200pts
Very inefficient, especially in 1500pts. DP-wings, MoT, warptime is fine.

If you want something in the 200pt range go with wind of chaos instead of bolt of change, its a lot nastier when combined with warptime. But I wouldn't consider spending 200pts in the HQ area until at least 1850pts... probably 2000+.

Another good cheap Tzeench HQ- Sorcerer, MoT, Doombolt, Wind, or Warptime.



Everything else, what Odo said. You need more bodies.

Loose the defiler to throw in another squad of Tsons or two squads of lesser demons.
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Old 06 Jun 2010, 00:07   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: 1500 Tzeentch List--Please weigh in


~HQ~
Daemon Prince - Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime - 175pts
Sorcerer - Daemonic Steed, MoT, Warptime - 185pts

~Troops~
Thousand Sons - x8, x1 Aspiring Sorcerer with DB, Rhino, Personal Icon - 294pts
Thousand Sons - x8, x1 Aspiring Sorcerer with DB, Rhino, Personal Icon - 294pts
Summoned Lesser Daemons - x5 - 65pts

~Fast Attack~
Raptors - x5, x2 Flamers - 110pts

~Heavy Support~
Obliterator Cult - x2 Obliterators - 150pts
Obliterator Cult - x1 Obliterators - 75pts
Defiler - x1 DCCW, R-AutoC. - 150pts

--Total--
1498pts

I understand that more troops are needed in 5th, but if I do add another 1k sons squad, I would need to invest another huge chunk of points because they would need their pricey Aspiring Sorcerer and a rhino. Leaves me with non-marked CSMs or lesser daemons. I would have to purchase another rhino if I was to use some unmarked CSMs, and I have oodles of lesser daemons so they would be my choice for additional troops. With the list above (which I believe is the correct point total), I could drop the defiler and throw in as many lesser daemons as that allowed. Would you guys really say to do this? I find 2 1ks sons squads has been enough for objective games, because I destroy my opponents or contest.

Thanks : - )
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Old 06 Jun 2010, 02:36   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: 1500 Tzeentch List--Please weigh in

Have you considered just paying at 1000 points, or is that not an option?

E.g.

Sorcerer - MoT, Warptime
Thousand Sons - x8, x1 Aspiring Sorcerer with DB, Rhino, Personal Icon - 294pts
Thousand Sons - x8, x1 Aspiring Sorcerer with DB, Rhino, Personal Icon - 294pts
Obliterator Cult
Obliterator Cult
Obliterator Cult

Still not enough bodies, but its probably better than trying to inflate the same amount of Tsons into 1500pts.


On you're list - that's too much spent on HQs. Only take one. You might have to buy more models, but it's either that, have an inefficient list or play at 1000 points.

Sorcerer - MoT, Warptime - 155

Thousand Sons - x8, x1 Aspiring Sorcerer with DB, Rhino, Personal Icon - 294pts
Thousand Sons - x8, x1 Aspiring Sorcerer with DB, Rhino, Personal Icon - 294pts
Thousand Sons - x8, x1 Aspiring Sorcerer with DB, Rhino, Personal Icon - 294pts

Obliterator Cult - x2 Obliterators - 150pts
Obliterator Cult - x2 Obliterators - 150pts
Defiler - x1 DCCW, R-AutoC. - 150pts


Good luck.
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Old 06 Jun 2010, 02:54   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default : o

I don't consider a daemon prince or defiler inflation - i consider them "scare the shit out of your opponents" that dominate CC and scare most units away. 1k points is definite a possibility, and my list would look very close to the one you posted, with the sorcerer joining a unite or a similarly clad DP with wings running around.

Does everyone else agree that the second HQ + Raptors should be dropped in favor of a another 9 man -rhino mounted 1k sons squad??

: )
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Old 06 Jun 2010, 05:38   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: 1500 Tzeentch List--Please weigh in

Quote:
Originally Posted by hirojlance
I don't consider a daemon prince or defiler inflation - i consider them "scare the shtlk out of your opponents" that dominate CC and scare most units away.
I don't like to think of them as inflation either, but as its already been said 16 marines (or 21 with the raptors) is not really enough for 1500 so I would say it's inflation when your points distribution is off and you're taking them when you need more bodies. And yeah, I'm not an expert by a very long shot so some verification from the more experienced would be nice.
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Old 06 Jun 2010, 18:33   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: 1500 Tzeentch List--Please weigh in

Defilers and princes are scare the crap out of you units. Both are fragile though, the defiler more so than the prince.

With defilers or vindicators you need 2 running at a time to be successful. 1 doesn't cut it, it just draws the enemies' big guns and dies. And experienced players will tell you that both are good for drawing fire away from your marines. I tell every WE player they should take defilers only as their HS because they rush up beside zerkers and draw enemy fire more than anything when used in this fashion which is what zerkers need... something scarier than them to draw fire. I sometimes run a vindicator against guard and tau knowing it will die just because it draws fire away from my marines(the real threat in my army). The big and scary units are good at that, drawing fire away from marines. But those tactics only work if the marines are the muscle of your army.

So either 2 defilers or the oblits, not both in 1500pts. You need more marines. The other option is to drop points in HQ, but in the end you need to drop something and put more points into your troops.

And you are really spending to many points in HQ. The raptors are not a bad addition, you need more troops first so I would recommend loosing something else(defiler or oblits) to buy the raptors but they aren't bad. But they do not need a sorcerer leading them, a champion would be fine.

Nakor's 1500 list looks like a very good TSons army. I would personally have 2 defilers or drop the defiler instead of having just 1 defiler but it still works.


Example list with raptors.

~HQ~ 12%
Daemon Prince - Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime - 175pts

~Troops~ 63%
Thousand Sons - x8, x1 Aspiring Sorcerer with DB, Rhino, Personal Icon - 294pts
Thousand Sons - x8, x1 Aspiring Sorcerer with DB, Rhino, Personal Icon - 294pts
Thousand Sons - x8, x1 Aspiring Sorcerer with DB, Rhino, Personal Icon - 294pts
Summoned Lesser Daemons - x5 - 65pts

~Fast Attack~ 10%
Raptors - x5, x2 Flamers, Champion- PW & meltabombs - 145pts

~Heavy Support~ 15%
Obliterator Cult - x1 Obliterator - 75pts
Obliterator Cult - x1 Obliterator - 75pts
Obliterator Cult - X1 Obliterator - 75pts

--Total--
1492pts
29 marines, 5 demons, 3 obliterators, 1 DP, 3 rhinos. Or loose the melta bombs and the prince to have the sorcerer leading them. I would loose a point or two to give the raptors meltas instead of flamers, or loose them to buy oblits/termicide because the one thing Tsons armies lack is anti-tank.
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Old 06 Jun 2010, 19:00   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: 1500 Tzeentch List--Please weigh in


Hooray, some discourse! I suppose you guys are right in that I need to get some more bodies in my list at this points level. I would like getting a a third troop choice in a rhino into the list. I could possibly drop the x5 lesser daemon squad, but right now they are some extra dice when my 1k sons need CC support or if they come in early, they are a cheap unit to run back and hold my home objective. Then again, with my 1k sons being fearless, they cost a total of 80pts when you factor in the 3 icons, which makes me feel like they aren't needed. Perhaps I could drop 2 of the 1k sons icons and put a IoCG on the raptors for icon + much better leadership.

A couple thoughts. The raptors are a fun unit, and I think it'd be good to keep them in the list because I have some unique tzeentchian models being used --but the main reason for them was to give my sorcerer a retinue to get him to non-eternal warrior HQs and enemy squads. x3 Obliterators and a winged daemon prince seems like decent anti tank, but if I really wanted I could replace the raptors with some combi-melta terminators.

If im going to be purchasing some more troops and a rhino, should I get a generic CSM squad to go in the rhino and save some points, or do you guys think another ~300pts 1k sons squad wouldn't get 'old' and will hold their own? I have been playing my 1k sons for a long time, and the more the merrier but I've never used CSMs with or without an icon, so ideas on that would be great.
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