[Sigma Pie]

This is my first ever army list. I've got the Chaos Space Marine squad and the Daemon Prince (still needs to be put together, but hey, I've got it ;D).

Here's the list:

HQ

Daemon Prince
~Wings



Elites

5 man Terminator squad
~ Heavy Flamer
~ Chainfist
~ Mark of Khorne



Troops

10 man Chaos Space Marines
~ Icon of Glory
~ Power Weapon
~ Heavy Bolter
~ Flamer


7 man Plague Marine squad
~ Two meltaguns
~ Power fist

[Odo The Brave]

So I'll say welcome to the forums first off, glad to have another CSM player around. Also, there's no easy way to get wings. Some people use the dragon or Balrog wings on the GW website, but many more people make their own. Until you can figure out a way to show them, just say he can levitate- as long as you aren't in a tournament most people will be fine with it.

Also, you need to take the individual point cost of upgrades down- we aren't allowed to post them.

Now, on to your list.

The first thing that I will say is that it isn't as bad as it could be. Admittedly, there are the usual problems, but we can address those pretty easily. One thing I noticed right off the bat is that you have power weapon/fist upgrades without the champions- which you cannot do. Make sure that you either re-add the points including the champ or drop the weapons- more on the troops later.

Okay, for HQ you aren't too bad, DP with wings is a pretty basic HQ also not too expensive. The problem with him is twofold 1. He's faster than the rest of your army, making him more likely to run into bad situations unsupported and 2. He's a monstrous creature, meaning he cannot join a squad to gain cover. Adding these factor together, you can see that he's a "fire magnet" a big, potentially very dangerous, unsupported target. This is why I personally favor Lords, since I can fit them into another unit and have them protected from fire. For how to outfit your lord you may want to check out this topic. It's old, but most of the advice is still good. One thing I do want to say is that a jump pack/wings is not the best thing out there, since I find raptor performance to be a little lackluster.

Now let's move onto troops, since they're the other compulsory unit. A note before looking at your build, but I find that taking at least 50% of your points in troops is worthwhile, since our troop choices are fairly strong. Now, the first thing that I spot when looking at your troops is that they are walking ie no Rhinos. While Rhino's aren't completely necessary they are very much suggested to to the added mobility and survivability they give. Then I notice your PW/PF which can only be given to a champion. I think you've factored the points into the unit cost, but you need to declare them as upgrades in future. Finally looking at your bodies/upgrades. The bodies are good in both units, fair sized without being too large.

For upgrades we start running into a few problems, in that your CSM unit is trying to do multiple things at once. Your flamer and PW note that you want to keep them in close and in CC, but your IoCG and Heavy Bolter show a more long-ranged style of play. You should move one way or the other, either fire support or CC. Either way I would suggest keeping the Champ w/ PW since it gives you some punch in CC. That leaves the IoCG/HB and flamer. If you want to move to a more shooting based unit I suggest keeping the HB and IoCG, but getting a plasma gun instead of a flamer since it is longer ranged and packs more punch. For a more CC unit drop the HB at the very least, since it makes it so that you cannot move or charge the turn you fire it- very bad for a CC unit. I would suggest 2 flamers or 2 meltas since it will allow you to knock down some enemies before charging in (remember to fire bolt pistols, not bolters, too!). For an Icon IoCG works, but an IoK would work better for more CC attacks.

Your Plague Marine squad is good, the only thing I would suggest is a Rhino, since having a very expensive unit walking around is bad. (fire magnet, remember?)

Your Termie squad is a fairly basic build, which is good. I would drop the (assumed) champion, since you don't need the leadership boost and there's better ways to spend the points. Your chainfist is good, and I would suggest also getting a PF for some more strength, but I like to keep a number of PWs in order to get a good number of I 4 attacks. Personally I would drop the heavy flamer, as I don't think that it's the best way to spend the points, but that's a personal opinion. A problem with this unit (though not as bad as some cases) is how will you get them to the fight? Deep Striking looks like the best alternative to me, since you don't have the points for a Land Raider at this number of points and walking expensive units is- yes, a fire magnet.

[hr]

Now that I've gone through your list probably leaving you somewhat dis-heartened I'll just talk about some tactics and list building in general since it's helpful to know a few things. Like I said earlier, big expensive and slow units draw a lot of fire and go down fast. Unfortunately for us, ALL our units are big and expensive, it comes with the army. So our job is to avoid as much fire as possible, the most usual way is "meching-up" or buying transports. So let's talk about our generic transport for a bit: the Rhino.

The Rhino is your best friend when playing CSM. For trading in a few bodies we get a vehicle that has good speed, decent armor, and a built-in cover save for 1 turn. This is a great help to any unit, even those that are designated as objective sitters or fire-support. For objective sitters the role of the Rhino is mainly one of protection, it's another 2 layers (smoke + armor) between your troops and the enemy's guns. That extra little protection might mean the difference between your troops holding the objective or not, and can easily decide a game. For a fire support unit the role is a little different. The Rhino becomes a moving cover save, simply put it between the enemy's big guns and your own, they'll have to blast through it to get to you giving you enough time to re-deploy your fire base or be prepared to shoot back. The Rhino can also keep you out of close combat by tank-shocking nearby units that might be trying to tie up your fire support in CC. Finally we have the CC squad's use of the Rhino- moving full steam ahead, popping smoke and then letting your unit hopefully be close enough to get the charge off the following turn. In all these cases the Rhino is expendable after it's first turn or so, as long as it's done it's job you don't have to worry about it's survivability- just point it at the nearest enemy and annoy the heck out of them.

Tying into the expensiveness of our units, we need to think about how much we are bringing to the table. Your list does fairly well keeping a high number of bodies, but honestly at lower points it's better (IMO) to have more bodies. At higher levels the body count doesn't matter as much since you'll have a bit more experience and the units will be doing more.

[hr]

Finally let's go through my suggestions for your list. I would personally ditch the DP and use a cheap lord (PW, Mark, maybe Termi Armor) which will free up points for other areas as well as cutting down on the fire drawn.

My next suggestion is to re-focus your CSM squad, give it a specific role. Also, mech up if at all possible. Also tying in with your troops, drop the PMs, get some CSMs instead. At 750 points you'll need all the bodies you can get. Also a good idea since your PM unit is actually 221 points not 198! That switch will free up points for some Rhinos, in addition to extra goodies.

My usual rule for 1000 points and under is to make a strong HQ + 2 Troops first, then get 1 other good unit. It looks to me like you may be sacrificing some of your Troop/HQ points in order to bring the Termie Squad, I would suggest cutting them down to 4 or even 3 members. Even that few Termies will make an impact at 750 points.

Another option (instead of Termies) would be to take a cheap Heavy Support unit such as a Vinicator, 2 obliterators, or a Havoc squad. That would free up some points for other areas, allow your Troops to focus solely on CC, and give you the fire support that you want.

A final note, use every point you can. Throw meltabombs on that champ if you've got the extra points, being 2 points under is better than 8 or 9!

Don't be discouraged by this massive wall of writing either. I'm writing down everything that I can think of so you can make yourself a better player and understand your army better. If you have any more questions PM me, but for now it is 2 AM here and I'm going to bed.

[Sigma Pie]

After a few hours of pondering, here is my new list. The above is the old list.

HQ

Daemon Prince
Wings
Warptime



Elites

Five-man Terminator squad

1 Chainfist
1 Lightning Claws
1 Heavy Flamer
Mark of Slaanesh



Troops

10 CSM
Meltagun
Meltagun
IoCG
Chap w/ Power Weapon
Rhino





Heavy Support

Five-man Havoc squad

3 Missile Launchers
1 Meltagun
IoCG



C.total = 750

I would like you to critique it for me. I am playing an offensive game.

Thanks.

[Ironwinds]

Its an illegal list...

You have to have at least two troop choices.

Me and Odo don't always agree, but that is some sounds advise above. If I got here first I would have said something similar. Well except I'm not a fan of lords or the Icon of Khorne on troops, but that is just game biase.

Daemon Prince
Wings
Warptime

He is great, this is one of the best set ups for a demon prince. Fall in love with it now and you will do well. When you feel like change just switch out his mark. Now yes he is a fire magnet and a bit big for a 750pt list. In 750 I would probably say a sorcerer with doombolt to stay cheap. And what Odo said about him drawing fire is true. Princes work great in lists that have lots of rhinos because they draw fire from the rhinos, so you need more of those.

10 CSM
Meltagun
Meltagun
IoCG
Chap w/ Power Weapon
Rhino

Again great unit. When you get bored with them try a Power Fist or giving the champ a combi melta, but otherwise a great unit. Fall in love with it early and you will do well.

Five-man Terminator squad

1 Chainfist
1 Lightning Claws
1 Heavy Flamer
Mark of Slaanesh

How do they get to the field? If they are deepstriking they are probably better off with more ranged weapons than hth weapons. Never overlook combi meltas and combi plasma. These make terminators a really scary unit. If HtH terminators Deepstrike your enemy can just walk away from being within 12" of you since you can't move after deepstriking and then shoot you to death.

Five-man Havoc squad

3 Missile Launchers
1 Meltagun
IoCG

If you want ranged firepower obliterators are normally better. Their weapons also seem confused, very short range and very long range. I would just take these guys as more basic troops instead of havoks with similar equipment to the first squad or 2 flamers and a rhino. This will also help because you only have 1 troop choice right now.

[Sigma Pie]

The Daemon Prince, Havoc and CSM squads were Odo's idea. I simply tweaked it a little. So kudos to Odo for the suggestion.

Tough I am quite devastated by your comments, I find it to be reassuring that I am being helped here.

I would love to go for the Obliterators, but since I am on a tight budget, I can only do this much. I was planning on deepstriking my Terminators into battle with CQB weapons. If I am making a mistake with this, I hope you can correct me.

I will redo this list and post it up again. Thank you for your comments. It is much appreciated.

[Ironwinds]

Well don't feel devasted, you just need another troop squad to make it legal.

The terminators can DS like that. But they will draw lots of fire before they get into close combat. One option I see a lot is something along these lines. 5 terminators, 2-4 combi weapons, heavy flamer. The combis are normally combi meltas or plasma, but plasma do require some converting. The reason combi weapons and heavy flamers are good is that you can drop near the enemy and unload your special weapons firepower at close range. You can put a decent dent into the enemy before they have a chance to shoot you. That way you earn some of your points back, maybe all and then you can get into hth with whoever survives. One chaos tactic called 'termicide' is deep striking the cheapest anti-tank terminator squad one can field, 3 terminators with combi meltas. Its whole purpose is to fall near a tank, hope to kill it, and then they normally die... hence why termicide sounds like suicide. However when a 105pt unit kills a 220pt tank and drew some enemy fire you have done pretty good. I'm not a fan of termicide. I normally deep strike larger squads 4-5 guys, with some meltas and a heavy flamer. They land near my troops and take out enemy vehicles and then support my troops in close quarters combat with their heavy flamer and power weapons. But I do try to make sure they earn some of their points back taking out a tank so that if they get shot to death the next turn I got something out of them. Does it make more sense now?

The plague marines were also a good option, just needed a rhino.

[Sigma Pie]

I re-did the list. Here it is:

HQ

Daemon Prince
Wings
Warptime

Total 155


Elites

5 Terminators *
Chainfist
3 combiweapons (Melta)

Total: 175

Troops

10CSM
Flamer
Flamer
Rhino

Total: 195


10 CSM
Meltagun
Meltagun
IoCG
Chap w/ Power Weapon
Rhino

Total: 245



Heavy Support **

5 Havocs
4 Missile Launchers


Total: 155


C.total = 750

I am torn between the idea of getting a Terminator squad with the Combi-meltas, but I like Odo's Missile Launcher overkill strategy too. I can't really decide. I was thinking about the obliterators, but then I cut them out after a friend pointed out the lack of unity between the army. The idea of Terminators Deepstriking behind enemy lines is quite interesting and daunting at the same time. Havocs seem to have a good build but I had to take out two IoCG's because the points were exceeding 750. Your criticism is much needed. Thanks.

[Dobb]

I would really suggest a few things for the sake of safety for your troops.

As much as Rhino would help you get to the front, you have to consider the possibility of something or someone will blow it to bits, or if you're lucky, immobilize it. Concerning the fact as well we're going up against IG, Tau and another better equipped Chaos and Space Marines, chances of getting to the frontline can be harsh, not to mention as an Ork player, that's all I can do, rush to the enemy and hope I got enough men to beat them in hand-to-hand if I don't have any vehicles that withstand the barrage first. In short, don't get too upset when one blows up. I suggest getting one first and see how it works.

Otherwise, tactically speaking, I would suggest having Raptor Squads to breach the gap between speed and support. Or if possible, maybe even Chaos Bikers. Havocs can do much harm, due to our recent shenanigans with missile launchers and grenade launchers,however, I think it can be a big fire magnet (aside from Daemon Prince) if someone foresees that they're about to be bombarded by 4 frags at 48".

Your troop choice will be your hammer and fist of Chaos there. Your choice of close combat weapons are good, but it can be better with an additional Champion with a power weapon to ease any assault encounters. One may not be enough. I might go for Heavy Bolters in the face of lighter armed enemies but that would restrict the need to push far into the frontlines. Icon of Chaos Glory can be great if you think you're gonna get alot of morale issues, but if not, I suggest the icon with 5+ Invul Save maybe. That would ease the odds of lack of cover and even harder hitting weapons. Provided if you're good at Fives and Sixes.

Another suggestion would be to look at how Sisters of Battles play, by having one squad covering each other. Then I might consider getting Plague Marines or Khorne Berserkers. The enemy will have to consider shooting at 2 Heavy Bolter/Plasma + 8 bolter fires from one corner, or risk getting melee'd by your specialist. That'll confuse your enemy further and hope he'll make the wrong choice.

Terminators will eat anything for breakfast, provided you're not deep striking them as Ironwinds had mention, remember, you cannot assault the same turn as being deep striked. So, reconsider your wargear if you're not going to drop them from the skies, and I doubt you want to use a Chaos Land Raider anyways due to constraints of budget. But with smart movement and swift flanking maneuvers, your Termies will be unstoppable with whatever weapons they carry.

Obliterators are something to consider if you really lack the efficiency of firepower and a lack of certain punch. But judging by your outfit, you don't need the expensive Obliterators if you got those termies there, don't pump up the points unnecessarily. Besides, budget wise, termies are more reliable choice for you.

Just my 2 cents here.

[crazyguy832]

Dobb, I'm going to have to disagree with you on a lot of points...

Originally Posted by Dobb

I would really suggest a few things for the sake of safety for your troops.

As much as Rhino would help you get to the front, you have to consider the possibility of something or someone will blow it to bits, or if you're lucky, immobilize it. Concerning the fact as well we're going up against IG, Tau and another better equipped Chaos and Space Marines, chances of getting to the frontline can be harsh, not to mention as an Ork player, that's all I can do, rush to the enemy and hope I got enough men to beat them in hand-to-hand if I don't have any vehicles that withstand the barrage first. In short, don't get too upset when one blows up. I suggest getting one first and see how it works.

Chaos Marines aren't anywhere near as cheap as orks and cannot get the wonderful KFF. We die horribly without rhinos to protect us on the way there. CSM's are far too slow, as well. That 12" move is beautiful. I think most people completely underestimate a rhino's survivability. Pop smoke and they'll last far longer than they should. Without that rhino, your marines are dead meat.

Rhinos also provide cover saves to daemon princes. /win

Originally Posted by Dobb

Otherwise, tactically speaking, I would suggest having Raptor Squads to breach the gap between speed and support. Or if possible, maybe even Chaos Bikers. Havocs can do much harm, due to our recent shenanigans with missile launchers and grenade launchers,however, I think it can be a big fire magnet (aside from Daemon Prince) if someone foresees that they're about to be bombarded by 4 frags at 48".

Raptors are stupidly expensive and unnecessary in most chaos armies. They can be a fun unit, but just aren't as good as most of the other choices in the codex. Havocs suffer the fate of heavy-weapon infantry: they can't move. Give them a few autocannons for lulz, but I haven't seen many other good builds with them. They'll either do a lot or die horribly. I've never had much luck, but YMMV. Oblits hands-down, for me. Bikers are something I've never really been able to figure out in a chaos army. I really have nothing else to say about them, lol.

Originally Posted by Dobb

Your troop choice will be your hammer and fist of Chaos there. Your choice of close combat weapons are good, but it can be better with an additional Champion with a power weapon to ease any assault encounters. One may not be enough. I might go for Heavy Bolters in the face of lighter armed enemies but that would restrict the need to push far into the frontlines. Icon of Chaos Glory can be great if you think you're gonna get alot of morale issues, but if not, I suggest the icon with 5+ Invul Save maybe. That would ease the odds of lack of cover and even harder hitting weapons. Provided if you're good at Fives and Sixes.

Heavy bolters (heavy weapons in general) are just stupid in CSM squads. Plague marines with plasma hold objectives better and havocs do fire support better (hell, oblits do it best). CSM squads are best armed with two like-minded special weapons and told to "go have fun." IoCG is just great in general. The other icons are quite expensive for what they do (replicate the cult troops). The IoT (5+ invul) is largely unnecessary. Your rhino will protect you on the way there, cover and/or assault afterwards. If you're having trouble getting cover in mid-field, you're playing on some truly strange maps.

Originally Posted by Dobb

Another suggestion would be to look at how Sisters of Battles play, by having one squad covering each other. Then I might consider getting Plague Marines or Khorne Berserkers. The enemy will have to consider shooting at 2 Heavy Bolter/Plasma + 8 bolter fires from one corner, or risk getting melee'd by your specialist. That'll confuse your enemy further and hope he'll make the wrong choice.

Honestly, it's not a hard choice for most armies. You'd think it would be, but no. Virtually every single army in the game should go after your close combat troops first. A pair of heavy bolters won't scare anyone save a farseer running around on his own. You should never have a game plan that includes your opponent doing something stupid.

Originally Posted by Dobb

Terminators will eat anything for breakfast, provided you're not deep striking them as Ironwinds had mention, remember, you cannot assault the same turn as being deep striked. So, reconsider your wargear if you're not going to drop them from the skies, and I doubt you want to use a Chaos Land Raider anyways due to constraints of budget. But with smart movement and swift flanking maneuvers, your Termies will be unstoppable with whatever weapons they carry.

Deep-striking termies need to be large squads with IoT or IoN to survive first-round fire, or small termicide squads designed to tank bust or flame some hordes. 5 termies with a chainfist and a combi-melta are on the large size for a termicide squad, small for a deep-striking assault unit. However, having 5 means they're reasonably likely to survive fire with at least one (maybe even two! ) left. It's personal choice, really. The meltas are fine and the primary focus of the unit. The chainfist plus power weapons should be all the punch the unit needs in close combat. At that size, a heavy flamer would be nice if you can find the points.

Originally Posted by Dobb

Obliterators are something to consider if you really lack the efficiency of firepower and a lack of certain punch. But judging by your outfit, you don't need the expensive Obliterators if you got those termies there, don't pump up the points unnecessarily. Besides, budget wise, termies are more reliable choice for you.

Agreed. Oblits are easily one of the best units in the codex.

Sigma, your list looks pretty good. Personally, I'd swap out the havocs for a pair of oblits and giving your termie squad a heavy flamer with the leftover points. But, hey, that's just me. I absolutely detest static elements in nearly any army.

[Sigma Pie]

Hrm. Your points are valid for the most part. But I do have a question for, though: are five bodies better than two, especially when those four out of the five are carrying weapons that can easily devastate huge chunks of the enemies army? This I look from a mathematical perspective.
I had the Obliterators in the squad list, but I took them out because, as I said before, there was a problem with the unity and overall coherency of my list. In a way, to put it bluntly, it didn't 'feel' right.

Crazyguy832, your points on the Rhino are spot on. As I have discovered after a from a few veterans, Rhino's are utmost important in a Chaos army. This was clearly stated by Odo and Ironwinds, to whom I thank wholeheartedly for their tedious explanations.

I looked at the Chaos Raptors with great ideas in mind, but I was disappointed by the point cost the carry. I will not deny their role as a fast attack unit is wonderfully orchestrated, and they are a tempting piece to add to my army list. Also, I speculated a Khorne Berzerker squad for my list, but it didn't seem to fit in anywhere. It also ruined the flow of the list, which I find to be important in an army. An army in disarray is not an army worth sending into battle.

Plague Marines have also been one of the more peculiar and intriguing units. Though they are amazing when in close combat, they are also somewhat a waste. Once again from a mathematical perspective; fielding seven Plague Marines with a Champion and extra power weapons is expensive and sort of redundant when compared to ten Chaos Space Marines with the same power weapons -- it is cheaper and has many more bodies.

I agree with Dobb on the Terminators being a very, very sustainable unit to field. Deep-striking them into an army to commit Termicide sounded like a good idea at first, but I had to reconsider. For a 750 point army, it is paramount that I do not lose anything too expensive. And the idea of losing one of the best CQB specialists in my list for a tank or an infantry squad sounds like a waste. If I were to go for a 1,000 point army, however, I would reconsider. But as of now I shall take them out.

And I hope you do not take this the wrong way, but you might have been misread what I stated earlier. I would have to chose either a Terminator or a Havoc squad. Only one. If I were to field both of them, the points would exceed 750. I am sorry if I did not state this clearly earlier. Currently I am moving towards the Havoc squad -- their resilience and devastating power has gotten me thinking. Terminators are still at the back of my head and I wish I could field them. Right now I am going to re-do my list once again. I might find something interesting that I can do with it. Who knows? If you have any ideas that you think would fit my offensive army tactics, I wish to hear from you.

I appreciate your time posting this and I thank you for it. I will post my list up soon. Thank you.

Here is my final list. My latest list. Though it has not been changed much, I decided to move the IoCG around. This may prove to be a good thing, in my opinion. Please, tell me what you think.

HQ

Daemon Prince
Wings
Warptime

Total: 155 points

Troop


Ten man Chaos Space Marine squad

Flamer
Flamer
IoCG
Rhino

Total: 205

Ten man Chaos Space Marine squad

Meltagun
Meltagun
Chap w/ Power Weapon
Rhino


Total: 235 points



Heavy Support

Five man Havoc squad

4 Missile Launchers

Total: 155

C.total = 750