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Eldar vs New Blood Angels (1850) 3.28.09 [PICS]
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Old 30 Mar 2010, 06:51   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Eldar vs New Blood Angels (1850) 3.28.09 [PICS]

HQ Prince Yriel
HQ Eldrad
HQ 10 Warlocks
7 w/Destructor
2 w/Enhance, Singing Spears
1 w/Embolden
Wave Serpent
Twin Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stone, Star Engines


TROOPS 3 Jetbikes
1 w/Shuriken Cannon

TROOPS 3 Jetbikes
1 w/Shuriken Cannon
1 Warlock w/Destructor


ELITES 10 Howling Banshees 182
1 Exarch w/Executioner
Wave Serpent
Twin Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stone, Star Engines


HEAVY SUPPORT Fire Prism
Holo-fields, Spirit Stones

HEAVY SUPPORT Fire Prism
Holo-fields, Spirit Stones

HEAVY SUPPORT Fire Prism
Holo-fields, Spirit Stones


TOTAL POINTS: 1850


===============


HQ - Dante 225
[Joins Guard]

ELITES - x3 Sanguinary Priests 75 x 3
All w/Jump Pack


ELITES - Librarian Furioso Dreadnaught 190
Extra Armour, Wings of Sanguineous, +D3 Attacks

ELITES - Furioso Dreadnaught 185
Blood Talons, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armour, Drop Pod


TROOPS - 5 Sanguinary Guards 250
1 w/Chapter Banner
2 w/Infernus Pistols


TROOPS - 8 Assault Marines 189
1 w/Meltagun,
1 Vet w/Power Fist

TROOPS - 8 Assault Marines 189
1 w/Meltagun,
1 Vet w/Power Fist


TROOPS - 5 Tactical Marines 115
1 w/Meltagun
1 Vet w/Lightning Claw


HEAVY SUPPORT
Dreadnaught 120
2 Twin-linked Autocannons



So, learned quite a bit more about the Blood Angels last night. Thought this game would be a good one to share to get some insight into their infantry and how they can work.

That Death Mask is something else. There's still a little heat from the Tyranid's Paroxysm. For awhile, I was quite convinced that the Tyranid Codex authors had gotten a typo, and that it was supposed to be -1 to WS and BS. That is, until I was reading about the Death Mask.

It targeted Yriel, much like the Deathleaper, reducing his WS, BS, W, I, A all down by 1. No biggy really, I have Enhance, but the fact it lasts, even after Dante's dead? I mean, what? Somebody needs to be Mind Warred.




TURN ONE - ELDAR





TURN ONE - BLOOD ANGELS



===============

TURN TWO - ELDAR




TURN TWO - BLOOD ANGELS



===============

TURN THREE - ELDAR




TURN THREE - BLOOD ANGELS



===============

TURN FOUR - ELDAR




TURN FOUR - BLOOD ANGELS



===============

TURN FIVE - ELDAR
Forgot to mention the Furioso Dreadnought in the list of kills!




TURN FIVE - BLOOD ANGELS



===============

TURN SIX - COMBINED



===============

TURN SEVEN - COMBINED





===============


POST-GAME CARNAGE REPORT
(I hope I got everything above right. I'm fairly certain)


Well, the foot council upheld my expectations. The Eldar vehicle's survivability however, did not. I was rather frustrated after I went to bed knowing that the foot council pulled through... yet again, and has not found a worthy challenge as of yet.

I am utterly clueless why people belate the foot council, calling them utterly worthless and "easy to kill". Who are these people?

Let's see, they killed 16 Blood Angels Assault Marines, a Sanguinary Priest, a Furioso Dreadnought armed with Blood Talons, Dante, and 5 Honour Guard. That's over 1,000 points worth to the foot council's cost of 726 points, including Yriel. The Bike Council is great, but from turn one, they are taking casualties because everyone tends to shoot them up. The Foot council takes 0 casualties because all weapons less than Strength 6 will do absolutely no damage (Wave Serpent). Once the Wave Serpent is out of the way only then can you begin the attempted killing of the foot council. Not to mention they're cheaper.


Anyway, not surprised at the loss, 3 Objectives to nothing. If I had made better choices, this might've turned out to be a tie, and the results of the game would've been better (that's not a probably!). Simply Shaking, Stunning, or removing a weapon from that Dreadnought on the first and second turn would've turned the tide of the game (not probably, would have!). Not having those Banshees available when I needed them really, really hurt.


Though it makes me wonder. The Blood Angels now have some of the most fearsome, fastest, thus flexible troop choices in the game. This means, if you want to go toe-to-toe with them in an Objective-based game, you will have to pit your weaker/fewer in number troop choices against their far more powerful ones, and struggle with them.

Now, suppose I did take more Troops, that would mean removing powerful elements in my army list to go up against this list, on a weaker basis. The only exception I can think of would be if I had spammed Pathfinders instead of Fire Prisms to tailor a list to fight this one. Ok, and I Infiltrate them to hold the Objectives. Now they are having to try and hold those Objectives against those Assault Marines. What, Eldar Guardians would do a better job? Maybe in en mass and with Eldrad's support. Dire Avengers could've lasted and held in there as a counterattack force, but there's no way they could stand up to any of those units. Full group of Wraithguard, for the extreme cost in points, would've been too slow and unwieldy against these Blood Angels. Perhaps they would've done the best, but once you tie up the Wraithguard in combat, you're there forever.

That leaves Guardian Jetbikes. Sure they're faster, tougher, and can dish out a little damage with help, but the Wraithguard would've been better. Any more troops I would take would mean taking away from the Fire Prisms, which add much-needed firepower and speed. If I didn't have any Fire Prisms, killing the Libby Dread on turn one would not have been possible.

The general plan for this army list worked on a whole except for where I made poor decisions. The Fire Prisms soaked up damage, being the main distraction and luring eyes off the Council, for just long enough for them to do some serious damage.





My conclusion on the the Blood Angels: They have some surprisingly nasty tricks up their sleeve and can pull out a wild card and there's nothing you can do about it, but at a fair cost. I'm not impressed or horrified over them anymore. Yes, their vehicles all being Fast was a bit of a shocker, and yes Assault Marines as troops are a tough lot to beat, but with careful planning, you can run rings around them.

The Blood Angels seem too straightforward to me. They don't enforce the use of a whole lot of cunning or technique, and what you do with the units always seem obvious.


I'm still having issues with the Tyranids right now. I haven't gotten over them, and being equipped with a Blood Angels Codex wouldn't make me feel any better. As far as I'm concerned, the Tyranids have evolved to have the strength and sudden death strike of the Space Marines, [potential] firepower of the Tau, ferocity of the Orks, trickery of the Eldar, and the monstrous survivability and awe-inspiring abilities of Chaos.

The Blood Angels? *shrugs* Just another fancy paint on the Space Marines.
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Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 30 Mar 2010, 17:09   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Eldar vs New Blood Angels (1850) 3.28.09 [PICS]

Great report, Marksman. I still have my reservations about the new book myself (flying Dreadnoughts + FNP on storm shield termies + fast, scouting Baals with flamestorm cannon + being able to fly 12 Marines and a Dreadnought into assault range on turn 1 = doesn't seem very balanced to me). But having not yet played against the new book, maybe these reservations will probably change in the future. (I am of the opinion, though, that Sanguinary Priests are a tad bit undercosted).

Looking on the bright side, at least you're aware of what you could have done better. Do you think Shining Spears would have been a worthwhile investment against the Blood Angels?
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Old 30 Mar 2010, 18:28   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eldar vs New Blood Angels (1850) 3.28.09 [PICS]

I really dont know what to think on this one. To me it seemed you were trying to beat them at their own game, which to me seems like a fool errand. Dont think im digging on you, i just dont feel that this is a reliable interpretation of their strength or how to fight against them.
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Old 30 Mar 2010, 18:37   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eldar vs New Blood Angels (1850) 3.28.09 [PICS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scyrex Deledras
Looking on the bright side, at least you're aware of what you could have done better. Do you think Shining Spears would have been a worthwhile investment against the Blood Angels?
I'm a analyst and strategist, I always study my games to look for room of improvement. In fact I sometimes prefer to lose. I hate Eldar, I hate them with a passion. I play with them for the sole purpose of finding weaknesses so I can learn how to defeat my mentally superior cousin (which is very, very hard). I can normally do it with a completely new army once, and one time I got lucky with 3 times, before, like a body's immunity system, adapted and became impossible to beat with the same list again.

So while yes, I did lose the game, (this is my cousin's list, slightly modified) I'm more concerned with losing the foot council. If someone honestly defeats this council, I'd be the happiest player alive. I was only able to do it once, and it took the efforts of my entire army and craftily taking the initiative and cornering his army; the one time I had advantaged over him in that he believed my army list was inferior.


As bizzare an idea like that sounds, about Shining Spears, I'd say absolutely. Shining Spears have always been great at taking out high numbers of expensive troops... if (and a big if) you can keep them alive for the turn you need them to be to conduct the charge. The risk is normally far too great...


But against Blood Angels, the two times I've played them (one completely mechanized, the second the one you see), Shining Spears would be ideal. They would need, as usual, a Farseer and Godtarch [Jetbike, Lance, Mandi-blasters, Fusion Gun] (or two of either, I think one of each is always great). Even if 2 Shining Spears died, and the full unit were joined by 2 Godtarch between them they would get 21 attacks striking as Strength 6 power weapons, excluding the 2 Lance Shots, a Shuriken Cannon, and 2 Fusion Gun blasts before the charge.

That would kill an average of 12.3 MEQ, all of the attacks done at Initiative 5 or higher. Even against vehicles, especially ones that are fast in which case you're only hitting on 6s in combat, you're getting 2 Fusion Blasters on them and if that doesn't work, you'll have a total of 19 attacks at Strength 6 on that rear armor.


But Shining Spears represent the peak of cavalry units in the Middle Ages. In that time, they were greatly used on a battlefield for their mobility and crashing tactics to break up enemy infantry on the flanks. But once they got stuck in with a dedicated fight, their momentum and impact is lost. With the advent of firepower through cannons, and later the musket, cavalry units became too big targets and too risky to use. Modern cavalry units still hold that issue in the form of helicopters. Helicopters are vulnerable to all types of attack: small arms fire, tanks, SAMs, other enemy aircraft (even bombers and CAS vehicles like the A-10 are known to take them out), ships, everything and everything can take them down. But their sheer mobility and rapid insertion gives them that edge in hitting the "flank" and breaking up enemy infantry.


Shining Spears are very vulnerable both before and after their glorious strike. If you can secure that strike, they'll do serious damage to tough infantry. So if you include Shining Spears, they have to have a close-knit ties to the rest of the army list.

Anything in the Eldar Codex (save Guardians, Striking Scorpions, and Wraithlords) would be good.

Fire Dragons in their numbers can reduce a MEQ force to ashes in a flash without assistance from other units. Dire Avengers and Warp Spiders can rain death upon them to soften them up before charging into a risky assault with weight in numbers.

Rangers can start doing damage to those Assault Marines from a distance and keep on hitting while easily taking shots from autocannons and Baal Preds, requiring up close personal business to shut them down. Wraithguard can act as shock absorbers to most enemy fire, tying up MEQ units for long periods of time just before unleashing Wraithcannon hell.

Swooping Hawks and Vypers can dart around and hit vulnerable areas in tanks far more expensive than they cost. Howling Banshees and Harlequins will laugh at almost all close combat advantages the Blood Angels think they're getting. Dark Reapers, War Walkers, Falcons, and Fire Prisms can quite unfairly mow down their infantry without touching them in combat.
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Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 30 Mar 2010, 18:43   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eldar vs New Blood Angels (1850) 3.28.09 [PICS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyp
I really dont know what to think on this one. To me it seemed you were trying to beat them at their own game, which to me seems like a fool errand. Dont think im digging on you, i just dont feel that this is a reliable interpretation of their strength or how to fight against them.
Well I may seem like a fool, but I did it pretty well then considering the sheer amount of damage I did. That foot council literally devoured the Blood Angels in this list, and could have done it much easier if there were Land Raiders, Predators, and Terminators. I eagerly play this particular [Eldar] army list in hopes of seeing it through being defeated, to test it's limits so I can learn how to defeat it myself. My greatest adversaries have been the new Tyranids, extremely crafty and well-made Tau cadres, and my cousin's Eldar. So I play with all of these armies so I can learn how to defeat them.
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If the Eldar see battle as a symphony,
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Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 30 Mar 2010, 18:51   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eldar vs New Blood Angels (1850) 3.28.09 [PICS]

Fair enough, and by no means was i calling you a fool..bonkers maybe...but not a fool. And after i read that you were using you cousins list that you were having trouble beating my thoughts changed a bit...but you posted again before i could edit.

And i hope the seer counsil/eldrad/yriel killed thier asses...how many points is that unit? 700 or so?
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Old 30 Mar 2010, 21:02   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eldar vs New Blood Angels (1850) 3.28.09 [PICS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyp
Fair enough, and by no means was i calling you a fool..bonkers maybe...but not a fool. And after i read that you were using you cousins list that you were having trouble beating my thoughts changed a bit...but you posted again before i could edit.

And i hope the seer counsil/eldrad/yriel killed thier asses...how many points is that unit? 700 or so?
You're very close, that's an excellent guess for points. Did I forget to list in in the Carnage Report? *checks* Yeah, there it is, 726 points to the 1000+ they killed. I don't know the individual model costs in his army list, but I did have an overall count (and was told that Assault Marines were something like 18 points each).
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If the Eldar see battle as a symphony,
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Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 30 Mar 2010, 21:08   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eldar vs New Blood Angels (1850) 3.28.09 [PICS]

Quote:
I was rather frustrated after I went to bed knowing that the foot council pulled through... yet again, and has not found a worthy challenge as of yet.
Hasn't this unit been pretty soundly beaten by Goliath? :huh:

And... you lost the game. Is this very game not an example of how a competitive, well-played army can beat your cousin's list?
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Old 30 Mar 2010, 21:25   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eldar vs New Blood Angels (1850) 3.28.09 [PICS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapter Master Seth
Quote:
I was rather frustrated after I went to bed knowing that the foot council pulled through... yet again, and has not found a worthy challenge as of yet.
Hasn't this list been pretty soundly beaten by Goliath? :huh:

And... you lost the game. Is this very game not an example of how a competitive, well-played army can beat your cousin's list?
This is a good point. The battle did seem tricky, but the list is hardly unbeatable. That unit is vicious though.
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Old 31 Mar 2010, 01:51   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Eldar vs New Blood Angels (1850) 3.28.09 [PICS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapter Master Seth
Quote:
I was rather frustrated after I went to bed knowing that the foot council pulled through... yet again, and has not found a worthy challenge as of yet.
Hasn't this unit been pretty soundly beaten by Goliath? :huh:

And... you lost the game. Is this very game not an example of how a competitive, well-played army can beat your cousin's list?
Reasons why the Foot Counsil is worse than the Council on jetbikes.

1) Jetbikes grant a 3+ save, which can be rerolled. Better than a rerollable 4+
2) Jetbikes don't explode, killing more points in unit than the vehicle itself cost (That's how I beat it.)
3) You can still go 12" and assault, unlike the Serpent, which if you move at ALL, you can't assault.

Edit:
For the record. You can't turboboost or use star engines if you embark that turn, so Dante probably wouldn't have died until turn 5 at the soonest, but probably 6 if it went on.
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