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TOdex =vs= Necrons
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 00:55   #1 (permalink)
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Default TOdex =vs= Necrons

The battle report was done with me playing as both sides. The main point is to show how overpowered having Heavy2 weapons can be, especially at Strength and AP:5. When you discourage mobility like this, you have to make up for it in heavy firepower. And that's just too much. Why take the Pulse Carbine and load up in a Devilfish when you can sit back and shoot your opponents to death from turn one?

The Ethereals' Inspiring rules need reconsideration. They are grossly overpowered, have too little fluff (on field) explanation, and overall just don't make sense. How do you inspire a troop to use a weapon better than its capabilities? Re-rolling to wound? For any unit within 6"?


As it stands, the Codex is extremely easy to abuse and tool. But I'm glad the Tetras shot up in price up where they're supposed to be.



TAU FORCES
HQ – Ethereal – 90
Royal Guard – 156

12 Royal Guard


HQ – Ethereal – 90
Royal Guard – 156
12 Royal Guard


TROOPS– 12 Fire Warriors – 120
TROOPS– 12 Fire Warriors – 120



TROOPS– 10 Kroot, 12 Hounds – 186
Sharpe +75 (grants Scouts)
Hyperactive Nymune Organ +15 (Fleet)


TROOPS – 10 Kroot – 134
Shaper
Hyperactive Nymune Organ +15 (Fleet)


TROOPS – 8 Pathfinders – 112


FAST ATTACK – 5 Vespid – 75


ELITES – 3 XV-9 Hazards – 255
1 Fusion Cascade each


HEAVY SUPPORT – Sky Ray – 130
Seeker Missile Rack

HEAVY SUPPORT – Hammerhead – 170
Manta Drop
Commander Steel +40
Twin-linked Pulse Carbines


TOTAL POINTS: 1824





NECRON FORCE
HQ - Necron Lord
Res Orb, Veil of Darkness, Staff of Light


TROOPS – Necron Warriors
20 Necrons

TROOPS – Necron Warriors
10 Necrons


ELITES – Flayed Ones
8 Flayed Ones

ELITES – Immortals
9 Immortals


FAST ATTACK – Scarab Swarms
10 Swarm Bases with Disruption Field


FAST ATTACK – Wraiths
3 Wraiths

FAST ATTACK – Destroyers
4 Destroyers


HEAVY SUPPORT – Monolith


TOTAL POINTS: 1844







GAME: Capture and Control
DEPLOY: Pitched Battle
Note: I completely forgot about the Vespid and the XV-9 Hazard Suits which were waiting in Reserves. That's a total of 330 points that did not participate. Plus, I forgot to add another 30 points somewhere, so the Tau are disadvantaged by 360 points (effectively making this a 1500 point army vs an 1850.)



DEPLOYMENT





TAU TURN ONE

EDIT: I did remember to shoot the Sky Ray rack the first round.



NECRONS TURN ONE





TAU TURN TWO





NECRONS TURN TWO





TAU TURN THREE, MOVE/SHOOT



TAU TURN THREE, ASSAULT

Forgot to mention the 8 Scarabs bases in the Necron deaths.








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Old 19 Jan 2010, 01:50   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: TOdex =vs= Necrons

For some background, were you playing against an opponent, or were you playing both sides? Also, I would suggest trying a 4th Edition Tau army built as close to this version as possible with the same Necron army and deployment. It might also help to forgo rolling and just use median results.

What folks are doing with the TOdex is really just coming up with ideas. It is the first stage of writing a codex. GW goes through the same thing. From there it is a process of doing exactly what you are doing, but systematically and over dozens of games against all existing army books (ideally, anyway). Don't dismiss their efforts because they haven't gotten the balance right. That is far and away the hardest part of writing rules, and even GW screws it up often as not. I do appreciate the effort you put in in playing these out and formatting detailed reports though, so +1.
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 02:55   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: TOdex =vs= Necrons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
For some background, were you playing against an opponent, or were you playing both sides? Also, I would suggest trying a 4th Edition Tau army built as close to this version as possible with the same Necron army and deployment. It might also help to forgo rolling and just use median results.

What folks are doing with the TOdex is really just coming up with ideas. It is the first stage of writing a codex. GW goes through the same thing. From there it is a process of doing exactly what you are doing, but systematically and over dozens of games against all existing army books (ideally, anyway). Don't dismiss their efforts because they haven't gotten the balance right. That is far and away the hardest part of writing rules, and even GW screws it up often as not. I do appreciate the effort you put in in playing these out and formatting detailed reports though, so +1.
Sorry, good point on the rolling and playing. Forgot to mention that the rolls were checked to be average. I'll include more footnotes.

Still, they are hell-bent on the Heavy2 pulse rifles, and I'm trying to at least put that idea down.


I will admit that this version a lot more cleaned up from the last one I did, but it still has a lot of "rules without fluff".
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Games in the Past Month:
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Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 03:11   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: TOdex =vs= Necrons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Marksman
[spoiler]

TAU FORCES
HQ – Ethereal – 90
Royal Guard – 156

12 Royal Guard


HQ – Ethereal – 90
Royal Guard – 156
12 Royal Guard


TROOPS– 12 Fire Warriors – 120
TROOPS– 12 Fire Warriors – 120



TROOPS– 10 Kroot, 12 Hounds – 186
Sharpe +75 (grants Scouts)
Hyperactive Nymune Organ +15 (Fleet)


TROOPS – 10 Kroot – 134
Shaper
Hyperactive Nymune Organ +15 (Fleet)


TROOPS – 8 Pathfinders – 112


FAST ATTACK – 5 Vespid – 75


ELITES – 3 XV-9 Hazards – 255
1 Fusion Cascade each


HEAVY SUPPORT – Sky Ray – 130
Seeker Missile Rack

HEAVY SUPPORT – Hammerhead – 170
Manta Drop
Commander Steel +40
Twin-linked Pulse Carbines


TOTAL POINTS: 1824





NECRON FORCE
HQ - Necron Lord
Res Orb, Veil of Darkness, Staff of Light


TROOPS – Necron Warriors
20 Necrons

TROOPS – Necron Warriors
10 Necrons


ELITES – Flayed Ones
8 Flayed Ones

ELITES – Immortals
9 Immortals


FAST ATTACK – Scarab Swarms
10 Swarm Bases with Disruption Field


FAST ATTACK – Wraiths
3 Wraiths

FAST ATTACK – Destroyers
4 Destroyers


HEAVY SUPPORT – Monolith


TOTAL POINTS: 1844







GAME: Capture and Control
DEPLOY: Pitched Battle
Note: I completely forgot about the Vespid and the XV-9 Hazard Suits which were waiting in Reserves. That's a total of 330 points that did not participate. Plus, I forgot to add another 30 points somewhere, so the Tau are disadvantaged by 360 points (effectively making this a 1500 point army vs an 1850.)



DEPLOYMENT





TAU TURN ONE





NECRONS TURN ONE





TAU TURN TWO





NECRONS TURN TWO





TAU TURN THREE, MOVE/SHOOT



TAU TURN THREE, ASSAULT

Forgot to mention the 8 Scarabs bases in the Necron deaths.[/spoiler]
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All, right I again have to wade through the muck to make our case known because someone insists on coming onto our topic, insulting the lot of us, and expects that he gets away with no questions asked.

List creation issues
Firstly, he never got to use his monolith or Flayed ones in the fight, so the points aren't close to what they should be for either of you as it seems. Sp your 360 points down is actually at a current advantage to his 379 points down. :

I'm also not one for list tailoring at all, but I'm rather rare in that too. This guy had some odd picks to say the least. :-\

Deployment
Is your opponent five?! Since you never mention seizing, it's obvious you went first which (in which case you set up first). He deployed like an absolute retard, but at least his spacing will help make my further points.

Deployment part 2
Your infiltrators on the top left could not have been outside of 18" of the main Necron w/ Lord group if your larger one was even further than them. I drew LOS to it from four different units just to make sure. More on those two later though.

Turn one shooting
Well done at those 15 dead Necs. Quite against the odds imo again. However, their deaths do have an interesting side effect for the unit in question. Your opponent pulled stupidly (extremely so, considering you're scouting towards him and moving) and allowed you to get the charge, but removing the right side of the guys would have saved him. Especially since each base Is about an inch across with the half inch I'm seeing between the guys on here. All said and done 24" to the last guy but then the lord and everyone in coherency are another half " plus further. Making them right outside of your combos 24" range. Oh but that lovable Marksman luck strikes again and the guy did pull the wrong models (ignoring the big ass unit bearing down on him for some reason) and then you pull a fleet six out of nowehere to barely tag the unit in cc (which also wouldn't have gotten your group into combat as you showed, being barely the tip in there for this fool to react too) and somehow get everyone up there.

The other combat is illegal. Since you infiltrated closer than you should have. If, for some miraculous reason you did this accidentally, you still had that 18" to do, which means another fleet roll of six. Those crazy dice of yours Marksman, I wonder how much you'd sell those blessed things for. In any case though, the combat was illegal in the end.

Necrons Turn One
What? Why do you think the Lord has a LD five when he's broken? Even still, I find it odd again that he would find himself failing a LD 10 check. There's your magic touch again I guess. :
Statistic tells us that he would have made his morale check and regrouped (since he no longer is part of the unit that was destroyed from under him he reverts to his IC rules and he is doesn't need a last man standing check).

Also not surprisingly, your magic luck for your opponents roll only three immortals out of eight getting up (believable, if not for all the other statistical breaking luck up to this point as well).

Your opponent also attacked a greatly outnumbering chunk of Kroot with three models. Yeeah, rocket scientists on the other end there. I would have joined them to the Lord that should be there, or headed out to support the scarabs by eliminating a statistically large percentage of the Pathfinders out in the open. :

At this point, the army pretty much has fallen apart due to an unfortunate series of dice rolls on this guys part + bad placement (unsupported Warriors, Scarabs, Destroyers, and Wraiths?! No one but a noob is that bad when the opponent deployed first!) + above average rolls on your part (again) make this another Colonel Marksman standard bat rep. With every thing that should have happened, it's too much of a though exercise to go from there. The turn two shooting comes from a position of supreme dominance due to some illegal moves and can't be saved at this point by the Necrons.

[hr]
I don't doubt that Tau would have won, because we fortunately deal fairly handily with the older codexes out there, Necrons included.
I'd like to see the same performance out of you when fighting a 5th edition Tyranid force, or an IG player that knows what he's doing.
[hr]

Since you obviously use VASSAL, why don't we put this to rest with you facing an opponent that is a bit better than your standard? Would you fight someone who has a codex with a power level we're aiming to match?

If no, I don't care one way or another. *Shrugs*

Khan has pretty much addressed the other issue at hand handily enough too.
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 03:44   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: TOdex =vs= Necrons

We're assuming average rolls, right?

5 Markerlights hit the Necron squad with Lord. 2 markerlights are used for the FW squad, 3 markerlights are used for the Royal Guard. The Royal Guard would take the Ethereal's rerolling to wounds ability, i imagine?

the first squad puts on 13.33 wounds. The second squad puts on 18.96 wounds. That's an average of 32.3 wounds, ~10.75 dead necrons.

Unless there's shooting that you didn't portray, that's 50% more deaths than the "average" wound expect.
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 04:49   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: TOdex =vs= Necrons

Well since Marksman has edited/admitted to having played himself after I was already typing away, I believe a bit of clarification is needed.

My above comments about the opponent were not directed at Marksman, but what I thought to be his opponent. The criticism hasn't changed though the words would have had that information be known prior to my clicking on "reply to". I also apparently type slowly since it took me something like 20+ mins to type my findings on the match's finer points.

With that in mind, my above comments will be in the proper, no individual target in mind (other than what I thought to be a faceless opponent), context.
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 05:03   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: TOdex =vs= Necrons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unusualsuspect
We're assuming average rolls, right?

5 Markerlights hit the Necron squad with Lord. 2 markerlights are used for the FW squad, 3 markerlights are used for the Royal Guard. The Royal Guard would take the Ethereal's rerolling to wounds ability, i imagine?

the first squad puts on 13.33 wounds. The second squad puts on 18.96 wounds. That's an average of 32.3 wounds, ~10.75 dead necrons.

Unless there's shooting that you didn't portray, that's 50% more deaths than the "average" wound expect.
Anytime results seemed "really bad" for either side, I checked for averages just to make sure.

For example, first round of shooting from one unit produced 11 dead Necrons. Just to make sure, I check the averages and redid the result to fewer deaths. Ah, you know what? I did remember to shoot the Sky Ray's missile rack.


They were all easily dead anyway. Those Kroot are getting 96 attacks on the charge. I also used the Markerlights to bring down their Leadership if you noticed. The Pathfinders getting BS:4 was just awesome. I would've gotten as little as 3 hits if it weren't for counting all those 3's.





Another thing you have to look at, in most of the bat reps I that show, is just how hard the victory was. I was over 300 points short on the table, and the Necrons were Phased out by Turn 3. They only got 2 turns, the first and second. If I had whiffed half of the shots in Turn one, they would've all Phased Out in Turn 4. That's how bad this is. And yet, people are always concerned with tiny details that they believe negates the whole point of the issue.

As I stated in the first post (with an edit) that "The main point is to show how overpowered having Heavy2 weapons can be, especially at Strength and AP:5."


If I took all Fire Warriors, Kroot, and Pathfinders, I would've phased out the Necrons on Turn One.





You also have to consider those Kroot that count as Cavalry with Infiltrate and being able to Scout, move 6", Fleet, and assault 6" is really fair.
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 06:01   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: TOdex =vs= Necrons

You were not "short points"
The Necrons never used the monolith (which should only deepstrike when you have 2, otherwise it is just a support role). It should have been giving rerolls to the warriors.

I see that your tactics are close to the "phalanx" in the codex. That doesn't work. Ever. You can't take a little of this, and a little of that, when playing necrons. If you have destroyers, take 15. If you have immortals, take 30. You *can't* have a mixed army or you aren't gaining the benefits of WBB
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 06:32   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: TOdex =vs= Necrons

Some of the Heavy 2 question is also going to require an assessment of adaptation. There are mechanisms in the game that have forced all opponents to play differently. It is possible that changing how the Pulse Rifle works could be one of them. The original thought was to make Static Tau units somewhat viable. But the downside is that doing so makes them essentially immobile. If your tactics do not exploit that weakness, you can not truly determine how the balance should work.

In this case, I would suggest dropping the Monolith right into the Tau gunline. Unlike the current book, Fire Warriors with H2 Pulse Rifles would not really be able to run away from it and retain any firepower. But you didn't even keep any Warriors in reserve to use the portal. I don't think the current Tau list would have fared all that badly either, given those general armies and the choices you made in their deployment.
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 06:50   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: TOdex =vs= Necrons



Bit of a slaughter eh? While the necron list had some flaws in particularly in unit selection, for instance wraiths only work when there are quite a lot of them. Flayed ones are merely warriors with a few special rules.

And to those who keep saying they were short due to the monolith it shouldn't matter. Most good players know you can't depend on 1 unit. Even then it couldn't have saved the necrons from that. While yes necrons can be a bit hit and miss I haven't been in in a lsaughter like this.

I will continue in a bit...
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