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Fandex Tau Project vs Space Marines
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Old 14 Nov 2009, 23:15   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Fandex Tau Project vs Space Marines

I'm getting put down from multiple persons about my arguments against this new 5th Edition Tau Codex some of you are working on. It seems to me that the Kroot have tossed smoke grenades upon the Codex design to keep people from seeing just what's in there. Misunderstood units are being given extra abilities or are lowered in point-cost. Every single weakness in the Tau army is being fixed to something of a monstrous thing. And somehow, the inclusion of Forge World has taken over your minds!


SPACE MARINES
HQ -- Marneus Calgar
Kayvaan Shrike
5 Vanguard Marines
(This unit joins together and uses Shrike's Combat Tactics. Calgar gains Fleet and Infiltrate with Shrike.)


TROOPS -- 10 Space Marines
Meltagun, Sergeant w/chainsword, pistol, Meltabombs
Drop Pod

TROOPS -- 10 Space Marines
Meltagun, Sergeant w/chainsword, pistol, Meltabombs

ELITES – 7 Legion of the Damned
Sergeant w/combi-meltagun
Legionnaire w/meltagun
Legionnaire w/lascannon

ELITES – 7 Legion of the Damned
Sergeant w/combi-meltagun
Legionnaire w/meltagun
Legionnaire w/lascannon


FAST ATTACK – Land Speeder
Multi-melta


HEAVY SUPPORT – Land Raider


1850 TOTAL POINTS


=====================


FANDEX TAU FORCE
HQ – Shas’o Commander – 180 = 385
2 Twin-linked Cascade Blasters
2 Shield Drones – 35
2 Shas’vre Bodyguards – 205
2 Twin-linked Cascade Blasters
1 w/target lock
1 w/2 Marker Drones


HQ – Ethereal – 120
w/4 Shield Drones


TROOPS – Fire Warriors -- 120
12 FW w/EMP nades
7 Gun Drones – 84

TROOPS – Fire Warriors – 130
6 fire Warriors w/EMP nades
7 Sniper Drones, Drone Controller


TROOPS – Kroot -- 301
10 Kroot
1 Shaper w/Thick-skinned
6 Krootox w/Kroot Guns

TROOPS – Kroot -- 221
20 Kroot
1 Shaper w/Thick-skinned, Ferocious


FAST ATTACK – Vespid Elders – 130
5 Elders


HEAVY SUPPORT – Great Knarloc – 80
Twin-linked Kroot Gun

HEAVY SUPPORT – Swordfish – 145
Twin-linked Fusion Annihilator, Multi-tracker

HEAVY SUPPORT – Swordfish – 145
Twin-linked Railgun, Multi-tracker


HEAVY SUPPORT – Snakehead – 185
2 Marker Drones, 2 EMP Missiles


TOTAL POINTS: 1852







THE GAME
I saved over the Deployment Zone picture, but considering sheer immobility of this Tau force, nothing moved. Tau have first turn. I deployed the Vespid by the other Fire Warriors in the far right as a counter-attack force should anything try to isolate that force and attempt to destroy them.


TAU TURN ONE
Land Raider takes a beating, getting Immbolized by the Railgun and shaken by the Swordfish with the Twin-linked Pulse Ravager (48” Range Multi-melta). Also launched 2 EMP Missiles at it using the Snakehead’s own markerlights, but rolled 2 ones. Pitty, it hits on BS:7 and on a 3+ (effectively Strength 11) Penatrates.

The Sniper Drones and the 6 Fire Warriors use the networked Markerlight in their team, giving it to the Fire Warriors in the main battle lines. They killed 4 Vanguard Marines by themselves and almost wounded Calgar.

The other Fire Warriors killed off Shrike and the remaining Vanguard Marine. Despite inflicting a total of 21 Marine wounds from these two troop choices at 18+ inches of range, and Calgar taking as many hits as he could, remains unscaythed.

The Krootox do their job from the present Codex: They shoot at light vehicles, and they completely blew it up… twice I might add.






MARINES TURN ONE
Calgar opts not to move and orders an Orbital Bombardment, but it scatters towards the Kroot and killed 2… oh wait 3+ cove save, absolutely nothing!







TAU TURN TWO
Hey ho! Shas’o and Bodyguards come out, hitting on target between the Land Raider and Calgar. The Snakehead moves around to get a clear shot at Calgar, adding the Fire Warriors’ BS +1. The Sniper Drone team shoots and gets 4 wounds, Calgar makes them all. The Fire Warriors lined up like a firing squad inflict 13 wounds on him, but he only fails 1 wound and still has 3 left. The Swordfish with the twin-linked Railgun Immobilizes the Land Raider again, taking off a twin-linked Lascannon. The other Swordfish with the long-range Multi-melta shakes it again.

The Krootox then Immobilize the Land Raider, and take off the other twin-linked Lascannon.

Now for the good part: in the past several tests I’ve conducted, the Shas’o and his Bodyguards have killed no less than 8 Terminators, and every time they shot at 10 Space Marines every single Marine died. No telling what they could do to Orks with upgraded armor or Hive Tyrants with Bodyguards. They decided to shoot at Calgar with 6, twin-linked Str: 8 AP:1 3" blast shots. Calgar died, taking 4 wounds. He did not receive Feel No Pain, and was forced to use an Invulnerable Save. Did I forget to mention that they have completely missed with two weapons throughout 6 different shooting phases I’ve conducted?
As for that glorious Calgar w/Fleet and Infiltrate, well, that’s 450+ points out the window.

Mind you, all of this shooting would have killed any Space Marine character, including Logan/Abbadon. The Shas’o and his team jump back.






MARINES TURN TWO
Ok, it’s only been two turns, and the Land Raider is 100% useless, Calgar, Shrike, and 5 Vanguard Marines have died with ease. The Marines are holding 1 Objective against 3.

But behold! Reinforcements have arrived! The Drop Pod scatters a little but still where the Marines need it to be. The Marines hop out and shoot the tar out of the Tau. Foolish Tau have taken the minimum of 6 … what the heck is that? Are those… 7 sniper drones? The Drop Pod shoots at the Vespid, killing 1. The Tau pass Leadership, losing 1 Sniper Drone and 4 Fire Warriors.

The Legion of the Damned Deep Strike way off course, falling from the frying pan and into the fire. They shoot at the Great Knarloc. It takes 1 wound, thanks to shield drones. My back-up plan in all of this was if the Ethereal died next to the other Objective that he and the Great Knarloc are holding, the Kroot could then hold both Objectives and count as having 2! But wait, if my Ethereal dies, that means… *gasp!* There’s no Price of Failure! No punishment for being weirdly careless with my Ethereal!






TAU TURN THREE – SHOOTING
Here, the Tau try again at the Land Raider but roll severely under average. It’s Stunned this time by the Swordfish and it’s 48” range melta weapon, and the Railgun failed to do damage. The Kroot manage to get in a weapon destroyed, removing all of it’s weapons.

The Snakehead lights up the 7 Damned Marines, upgrading the Fire Warriors’ BS by +2. Hitting on 2s, wounding on 3s… and they roll poorly with only 15 wounds. Awe. One is left. The Knarloc, as you see, has removed itself from the Ethereal (shouldn’t have done that, but oh well) and roars at the remaining Veteran Sergeant.

Meanwhile, the Vespid shoot 4… oh wait, 12 AP:3 shots, with the aid of the Networked Markerlight, hitting on 3s. Together, they killed 6 Space Marines, with no armor saves allowed. The one that did have an armor save passed.





TAU TURN THREE – ASSAULT
The Vespid assault the Marines going first and kill 2 Marines. The Marines go next and thanks to Toughness 4, kill 1 (Vespid made 1 of 2 armor saves). Sweeping Advance, oh wait, caught, Marines Know No Fear! Doesn’t matter, the Veteran Sergeant dies! Vespid consolidate back towards cover slightly.

The Knarloc is wounded once, but inflicts 3 wounds back. The Damned Marine makes all of his Invulnerable Saves.







MARINES TURN THREE
More reinforcements arrive! The other Damned Marines shoot at the Kroot in the trees and wound on 3+ with their Bolt… oh wait, 4+. With a 3+ cover save, they lose only 2. The Drop Pod shoots the Fire Warriors, killing 1.






TAU TURN FOUR
Tired of having to deal with not getting a double penetrating hit at greater than 24” on the Pulse Ravager, I moved it up just barely within the range I need it. Again, the Shas’o moves in closer, and the Kroot move out of the trees, ready to do what is needed (e.g. assault the Marines if they survive this next turn and they do something aggressive).

Well, you’d be surprised to know that the Railgun on the Swordfish Stunned the Land Raider and the Pulse Ravager got a Shaken. It was the Krootox who did the final damage, scoring another Weapon Destroyed Result, spilling 10 Marines out in the cold. Grinning, I proceeded to shoot the Shas’o and his bodyguards’ ultimate weapons. I scored 17 hits, even though the Marines spread around the Land Raider, and used the Markerlights on the Snakehead to reduce their Cover Save by 2. In case you’re wondering, each blast template hit 3 Marines, except once. The Marines are forced to take 17 Instant Death 6+ cover saves, and fail 13 times, killing every single one of them with great ease. Between Calgar and these 10 Marines, the Shas’o and Bodyguards have killed 450 points in just 2 shooting phases. They themselves cost 385 points.


The Fire Warriors, having to move out of the way for the Swordfish, move and assault the remaining Damned Marine. The Knarloc takes another wound, and whiffs. It was the Drones and Fire Warriors that heaped 36 close combat attacks on that one Marine that killed him. He lost 5 wounds (or died 4 times, however you look at it). They then consolidate towards the Objective in the center.


The Kroot move through the forest and assault the other Damned Marines, killing 3, but initially lose the Assault by 1, and failed their Leadership test. The Damned Marines get them on the Sweeping Advance. Shame. The Kroot got in 41 attacks at Strength 5 and have a Toughness of 4.

The Fire Warriors use their cheap EMP grenades, but roll double 1s.






MARINES TURN FOUR
The Legion of the Damned and the Drop Pod do their best to force the Fire Warriors off the Objective, but inflict no casualties. The EMP grenades Stun the Drop Pod.







TAU TURN FIVE
The Shas’o and company utilize the full speed of a Battlesuit, moving 6”, running (2”), and jumping 6” again to move in on the remains of the Space Marines. The Swordfish is out of melta range, but wrecks the Drop Pod regardless. The Snakehead scores 2 hits with it’s markerlights, and adds +2 to the BS of the Fire Warriors and their Sniper Drones, easily killing off the rest of the Legion of the Damned. Just for good measure, the Krootox rejoins the Ethereal and becomes a scoring unit, and the Fire Warriors move en mass towards the central Objective.




====================


POST GAME CARNAGE REPORT
The Space Marines have lost 0 to 3, given another turn the Kroot made their way to the other Objective with a Run, and hold the other Objective, making it 0 to 4.

The Space Marines have destroyed a total of 342 points out of about 1850 (half the Knarloc, 1 Vespid Elder, 4 Fire Warriors, 1 Sniper Drone).

The Tau have destroyed 1850 points, about a 1508 point difference, with under-average rolling on the vehicles in turns 1-3. If this were kill points (in which the Marines inside the Land Raider would’ve been brave, would have died easily, but more aggressive), it would be 1 to 10.
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Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 15 Nov 2009, 02:29   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Fandex Tau Project vs Space Marines

hmmmmm interesting, are you using the TOdex? or which fandex did you use in the fight? Being a tau player i would like to see some changes, but that was damn near stupid. I want to win...but (even as much as i dislike marines) i would like a challenge something to test my skill vs my opponents...not a one sided gore shooting gallery.
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Old 15 Nov 2009, 04:24   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Fandex Tau Project vs Space Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyp
hmmmmm interesting, are you using the TOdex? or which fandex did you use in the fight? Being a tau player i would like to see some changes, but that was damn near stupid. I want to win...but (even as much as i dislike marines) i would like a challenge something to test my skill vs my opponents...not a one sided gore shooting gallery.
This is the TOdex they're working on. Members from ATT are also working on it. The 3 times I've tested this list, I've felt like I'm playing a Gundam-themed army, something with powerful mechs with infantry that are given supped up weapons for taking on massively powerful alien armies. It doesn't even have the right feel of Tau at all. The Kroot don't either. With those upgrades (no limits) they're more like shock troops than Kroot.

Even the Vespid, which are much cheaper, are so boldly easy to include that it's rather ridiculous. These are the more elite vespid I used, but their blasters get 3 shots and they cost 26 points apiece.

I wanted to represent the loophole with the Ethereal as well. I'm sure they meant good when they wanted the Ethereal to have a proper unit of Honor Guard that can hold Objectives; they didn't intend to have that rule abused so easily as the Ethereal joins ANY unit and that unit becomes scoring (even if it's a Great Knarloc).


The 5th Edition Codex they built also completely ignores the teamwork that's used to win with Tau armies and makes each unit capable of making a last stand at range. While this may be the case of normal "armies", that's not the function of a cadre. You can see the lack of special weapons in troop choices by giving them access to a gun drone squadron or sniper drone squadron, that don't contribute to kill points nor can they hold Objectives.

The Railgun without Submunition on a Hammerhead without the DP is 145 points, and it's twin-linked. The other weapon I tried out was the 48"-range melta weapon.


There's a few other things I didn't include. 30-point jetbikes. Firstly, Tetras are vehicles to my understanding. Secondly, an Eldar Jetbike costs 22 points a model. For +7 points more, they lose the I:4 to 2, WS:3 to WS:2, but get a twin-linked pulse rifle, a markerlight, a 5+ cover save in the open, (count as Relentless of course), and a Blacksun Filter.

I can't see WS:3 to WS:2 and I:4 to I:2 being a strong enough trade-off for all of that for just 7 points.


Vespid used to be 12 points in this Codex, but they increased it since I last checked to 14. With the Skilled Flyer, I didn't have to worry about them being hurt in difficult terrain. Tau players forget that with a Strain Leader, Vepsid get a Ld:9 which can tie up enemy units of low-model count for a very long time, esp. with T:4. But they can also benefit from Markerlights. Imagine 10 Vespid shooting at 10 Marines with 2+ to hit, 3+ to wound, no saves. Then assault what's left with I:5. That's the power of Vespid.
They do the same job as the Kroot as assisting the Tau cadre, but do it differently.



On some models, the Drone Controller is free. And yet, Shield Drones come from 10 to 15 points each. With an upgrade, you can take 4 drones. The Aun'el in this army list has 4 Shield Drones for 10 points each, joined to the Great Knarloc (who already has 5 wounds).


Monstrous Creatures do not have Fleet. They do not have Fleet for a specific reason. Why does the Great Knarloc have Fleet? Not to mention it's Kroot Gun is twin-linked.



The Kroot Guns were increased to Strength 8, Heavy2 because the old Kroot Gun sucked too much I guess with only 1 shot at Str:7. Tau players forget that Krootox add 3 wounds on one model base for the Kroot and act as excellent shock absorbers. When playing defensively in combat, they have a Str:6. They don't cost that much for 3 wounds and 1 48" range weapon. If you damage any vehicle in the game, you make up for the cost, even a War Walker with twin-linked Shuriken Cannons doesn't cost 21 points.

Giving them the ability to take not 3 but 6, for 30 points each... yeah. As I have demonstrated, you just gave them the ability to damage and stop vehicles with Armor 13 or 14 by pumping in enough shots.


EMP grenades in this Codex simply penetrate vehicles on a 3+. They cost 1 point a Fire Warrior. That gives them excellent potential at destroying Dreadnoughts when they charge. Even Eldar Haywire Grenades must penetrate on 6 only.


Marker Drones are now a lot cheaper, and can cost as little as 20 points (if the drone controller is free). As I have demonstrated, giving me access to a number of Networked Markerlights in this respect can be extremely devastating.



Any Tau player who looks at the units individually in the Tau Empire Codex doesn't have a single idea what he's doing and shouldn't be playing with Tau. They will not win all the time and sometimes not at all. They cry cheese when something moves too fast or can get into combat too quickly, or doesn't die fast enough to railguns. But these problems are easily fixed when you get the lesser-liked Tau units and combine them together to make a truly awesome and fearsome cadre that little can compare.



The next Tau Codex should focus on this teamwork, rewarding them for bringing proper units together while forcing the opponent to stand confused as to what to do about it. When you play against my competitive Tau army lists, you can take your time destroying the biggest guns in my army, but you will still be confused as to why your army is still dying. It's because you're ignoring my supporting units. Support to the Tau race does not mean the same thing to us humans. Such a new Tau Codex should punish players for breaking up the army and make losing painful and winning hard.

I'm in the process of constructing such a Codex. It's only in infancy, but anyone interested is welcome to PM me for suggestions or ask to take a quick look.


For the Greater Good.
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If the Eldar see battle as a symphony,
Then the Elati have mastered a solo piece,
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Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 15 Nov 2009, 04:57   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fandex Tau Project vs Space Marines

And your point is...fanboys can't write rules!

This is a lesson most of us already learned*. Fandexes usually are unbalanced and ridiculous.

*EDIT: I had no idea what I was saying there, lol...fixed.
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Old 15 Nov 2009, 05:08   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fandex Tau Project vs Space Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidstyler
And your point is...fanboys can't write rules!

This is a lesson most of us already learned*. Fandexes usually are unbalanced and ridiculous.

*EDIT: I had no idea what I was saying there, lol...fixed.
No kidding. I didn't actually know that... up until now.


Someone had asked for this army list to be tested on that forum somewhere in there. Well, here it is! This is what they're brewing up in the Tau section forum, "What do you want to see in the next Codex?" that has now extended 37 pages with 548 replies. In my experience with making Fandexes, the more people you have, the better it is.

I'm all for making Fanexes; I have nothing against them. It's an extremely interesting and fun past-time. I made one for the Alien Hunters and quite frankly, I'm somewhat proud of the achievement. But I assumed that most people tried to make Codexes as balanced with as many simple rules as possible like we did. It's part of the challenge of making a good quality Fandex.
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If the Eldar see battle as a symphony,
Then the Elati have mastered a solo piece,
Of every instrument.


Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 15 Nov 2009, 05:16   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fandex Tau Project vs Space Marines

Just to be fair, I don't think I could do any better. Being a Tau player myself it makes me a bit biased, and I don't know the first thing about game design or probability or anything like that. My fandex would be complete and utter fail and either break the Tau utterly or make them even worse.

That said there's one thing I agree with though, I will never ever take an ethereal until "Price of Failure" is gone. Even if the ethereal was beefed up to make him worth taking, I don't want 40k to turn into Warmachine where you lose the game if your hero dies.
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Quote:
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Knowing the rules is not WAAC. Bringing tough lists is not WAAC. Acting within the scope of the rules is not WAAC.
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Old 15 Nov 2009, 06:09   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fandex Tau Project vs Space Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Marksman
In my experience with making Fandexes, the more people you have, the better it is.
Have you ever read anything I've written?
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Old 15 Nov 2009, 06:30   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fandex Tau Project vs Space Marines

One of the things thats makes a good codex in my opinion is KEEP EVERYTHING AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE. Once you complicate the rules, you introduce loopholes which screw with the balance. As for balancing units, I reckon every advantage a unit gains must be outweighed by at least 2 disadvantages that actually matter. I actually quite like the Tau codex as it is at the moment, it only needs a few tweaks here and there but it's still very much functional.
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Old 15 Nov 2009, 08:41   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fandex Tau Project vs Space Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Das Boogie Man
One of the things thats makes a good codex in my opinion is KEEP EVERYTHING AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE. Once you complicate the rules, you introduce loopholes which screw with the balance. As for balancing units, I reckon every advantage a unit gains must be outweighed by at least 2 disadvantages that actually matter. I actually quite like the Tau codex as it is at the moment, it only needs a few tweaks here and there but it's still very much functional.
Functional, yes, as I demonstrated.
__________________
If the Eldar see battle as a symphony,
Then the Elati have mastered a solo piece,
Of every instrument.


Games in the Past Month:
Tau: W-1, T-0, L-1
Witch H: W-0, T-0, L-0
Eldar: W-2, T-0, L-1
Guard: W-0, T-0, L-0
Other: W-2, T-1, L-0
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Old 14 Jan 2010, 05:38   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fandex Tau Project vs Space Marines

The Space Marine's sole Drop Pod should have arrived Turn 1. The SM player doesn't get a choice in that regard.

Other than that... a very interesting BR. Thank you for giving a good blow-by-blow of the TOdex in action.

Edit: As was pointed out elsewhere... are you sure this is the TOdex you tested? I don't see a 48" melta weapon, nor "upgraded" vespid with 3 shots per vespid, nor several other things you've mentioned...

1. A Shas'o doesn't get access to TL Fusion Blasters... they're not TL, and they're called Fusion Cascade. And the point costs you listed are wrong - the closest equivalent would be a Hazard Shas'o with 2 FCs and 2 Shield Drones, at 170 points (assuming V2.60)

2. 2 Hazard Guard with 2 FCs and the gear you listed would be 255 points.

3. Ethereal - can only take 1-2 drones.

Do I need to continue? Cuz I haven't seen an accurate unit presented yet...
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