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Recent Changes to the Enclave Access
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Old 07 Jan 2010, 15:47   #11 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Recent Changes to the Enclave Access

Quote:
Furthermore, it can be no coincidence that this crackdown has occurred at the very same time at which we have seen the introduction of the most epically pointless Enclave subboard ever created. Now I knew exactly what its creation would lead to. I said, barely two weeks ago, that it would result in the resuming of whinging about the Enclave being too big. I said that that would result in further Enclave restrictions. And hey presto - look what we've got: further Enclave restrictions with possible additional ones in the coming weeks. I warned you about this FT - and you completely ignored me.
Actually, I would like to point out that the Enclave restrictions were in place, but not formally announced, before the Cooking board was even suggested...

Proof of this (check the dates on the various posts):
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...c,91427.0.html - Enclave access becoming restricted and the "after effects"
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...c,91738.0.html - Suggestion of the new board

I put in the new board, in part, because of the increased restrictions, even if that decision was in error (but then, isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?).

Quote:
You must however acknowledge the reality that there is no point whatsoever in having these rules if you are going to bend them for a large majority of those who ask.
Who said the rule bending was for the majority who ask? The three members who have so far come forward to ask have all had access previously and were either running Enclave games or were long time members anyway. If a member who registered yesterday came forward and asked, then they wouldn't get access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tau-killer
The fact that a member has no positive karma does not imply that they have contributed nothing to the forum.
So you really think that members who have been around long enough to accumulate 250 posts who don't have at least one positive karma?

And yes, I do know there are a few that have slipped through the gaps previously and if they are that bothered about Enclave access, they could ask for Enclave access at which point, it would be a simple matter of checking their post history and finding out if they have contributed to the forums in some measure and giving them the karma to unlock the Enclave.
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Old 07 Jan 2010, 15:56   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Recent Changes to the Enclave Access

It is hard to get karma if you are not a good writer though. Dac has told me my posts are hard to understand not that I am not trying to contribute to the forum but rather my contributions are not understood so I do not get credit for them.

We did discuss stuff some times before in the enclave like the top ramen thread a few years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasta Tuner (Farseer Tyross)
Quote:
Furthermore, it can be no coincidence that this crackdown has occurred at the very same time at which we have seen the introduction of the most epically pointless Enclave subboard ever created. Now I knew exactly what its creation would lead to. I said, barely two weeks ago, that it would result in the resuming of whinging about the Enclave being too big. I said that that would result in further Enclave restrictions. And hey presto - look what we've got: further Enclave restrictions with possible additional ones in the coming weeks. I warned you about this FT - and you completely ignored me.
Actually, I would like to point out that the Enclave restrictions were in place, but not formally announced, before the Cooking board was even suggested...

Proof of this (check the dates on the various posts):
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...c,91427.0.html - Enclave access becoming restricted and the "after effects"
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...c,91738.0.html - Suggestion of the new board

I put in the new board, in part, because of the increased restrictions, even if that decision was in error (but then, isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?).

Quote:
You must however acknowledge the reality that there is no point whatsoever in having these rules if you are going to bend them for a large majority of those who ask.
Who said the rule bending was for the majority who ask? The three members who have so far come forward to ask have all had access previously and were either running Enclave games or were long time members anyway. If a member who registered yesterday came forward and asked, then they wouldn't get access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tau-killer
The fact that a member has no positive karma does not imply that they have contributed nothing to the forum.
So you really think that members who have been around long enough to accumulate 250 posts who don't have at least one positive karma?

And yes, I do know there are a few that have slipped through the gaps previously and if they are that bothered about Enclave access, they could ask for Enclave access at which point, it would be a simple matter of checking their post history and finding out if they have contributed to the forums in some measure and giving them the karma to unlock the Enclave.
I was along until several hundred posts before I had one positive karma point and it was about a year after I joinded the forums but those were days when I had acess to the enclave before. Also this makes karma less specail.

Also in the seeing if they contributed is it a reversal on not being able to flag old posts? Originally back when flag for mods was first thought up Gada answered that you cannot flag old posts really.

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...,48298.30.html
read after my post.
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Old 07 Jan 2010, 16:19   #13 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Recent Changes to the Enclave Access

Well, in my case I was a member for almost a year when I got my first Karma point, and I'm sure I had a lot more than 250 posts then. Did we even have enclave restrictions in 2006? Not sure. If we did I never noticed :P

The new regulations don't really effect me at all, but I have a question. Obviously you want to limit the number of members who don't partake in the Forums, and have signed on only to use the enclave. However there a few players on the Serious role-play forums, who are friends of long time members, who essentially only have a membership so they can play in some of the more serious strategy games.

I am just thinking that with the crackdown these members will lose their enclave access (which they originally had to ask for anyway), and worryingly to me, won't "deserve" to get it unless they become mildly serious posters, which isn't going to happen. Obviously I am only really referring to one or two members here, but if their enclave access is cut it could be a real bummer for the SR board.
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Old 07 Jan 2010, 16:51   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Recent Changes to the Enclave Access

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonga Khan
Did we even have enclave restrictions in 2006? Not sure. If we did I never noticed :P
There weren't any restrictions then. 2008 was when it started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasta Tuner (Farseer Tyross)
Who said the rule bending was for the majority who ask? The three members who have so far come forward to ask have all had access previously and were either running Enclave games or were long time members anyway. If a member who registered yesterday came forward and asked, then they wouldn't get access.
I say that it's for the majority because that's how it's been since 2008. Ever since then, you and Khanaris and others have consistently said and hinted that if you want Enclave access, just ask and you're practically guaranteed to get it. Khanaris' post on the (now disappeared) 'Enclave and Post Count' topic famously ended with 'there is little reason why your request [to join the Enclave] would be refused.' His subsequent post that I quoted in my former post demonstrates that this attitude hasn't changed at all.

Now, given your example, you sound to be doing what I suggested doing in my previous post: generally granting access to current members and making new members gain 250 posts first. So I ask again, why not adopt my suggestion officially. It's practically what you're doing anyway, and it will end the current situation of having a rule which you're bending and breaking all the time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasta Tuner (Farseer Tyross)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tau-killer
The fact that a member has no positive karma does not imply that they have contributed nothing to the forum.
So you really think that members who have been around long enough to accumulate 250 posts who don't have at least one positive karma?
If you're asking what I think you're asking then my answer essentially remains unchanged - the fact that a person has 250 posts and no karma does not imply that such a person has contributed nothing to the forum, and I am alarmed that you are holding such an attitude. There is far more to the healthy life of an online community than the writing of essays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasta Tuner (Farseer Tyross)
And yes, I do know there are a few that have slipped through the gaps previously and if they are that bothered about Enclave access, they could ask for Enclave access at which point, it would be a simple matter of checking their post history and finding out if they have contributed to the forums in some measure and giving them the karma to unlock the Enclave.
Hang on.

So if I've understood you correctly, if you deem someone to be worthy of Enclave access, yet they don't have any karma - you're going to give them karma so that, under these rules, they can be let in?

Firstly, by handing out karma for nothing, you've just made karma worthless. And furthermore, we're back to the same point about the utter pointlessness of imposing rules if you're going to repeatedly bend and break them. Surely the whole point of imposing the +1 karma rule is that (in your view) karma is some objective standard by which the suitability of a member for posting in the Enclave can be judged. But you've just said that you will happily give someone karma if you deem them worthy - thus demonstrating that karma itself is not the be all and end all when it comes to judging the said suitability. Therefore - why are you even bothering to impose it as a rule? It is a complete waste of time - as well as being incredibly dangerous, as I set out in my former post. You didn't even try to refute that part of my argument so I can only conclude that I am completely right on that specific issue.

In this conclusion, this only serves to further demonstrate that the +1 karma rule is utterly pointless and should be removed immediately.
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Old 07 Jan 2010, 17:36   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Recent Changes to the Enclave Access

[ ]

I am in two minds here.

I can see the logic in restricting enclave access.

We have a buzzing community here full of interesting and characterful folks and this is non more apparent than in the enclave (characterful: Please read: - Eccentric, mad, unique). Because of this, members may solely post in the enclave about non-hobby related issues all the time, not contributing to TO as a whole.
And having too many of these enclavites does create a clique among TO'ers.

Having a post and karma requirement, i would argue is more screening than it is elitism. The concept of screening people from the enclave is a step in the right direction to prevent it growing and absorbing us all in a wave of unstoppable shtlk and spam, if perhaps this method of going about it is not perfect yet.

Spending 95% of your posts in enclave, Id say, is generally frowned up in a hobby forum like this. But you cant really punish people for being friendly and talking about day to day garbage, nor can you easily prevent them doing so while a board such as the enclave exists.

While some enclave threads are pretty funny, witty or entertaining, I have noticed more and more plain klkn to be honest.
And why a separate subforum for cooking? O_o No disrespect to the people that supported it, but come on people?! "Gardening and Horticulture" anyone? "Interior design and DIY"?

With "Culinary and Cooking", on some occasions, getting more posts per day than the "Showcase" and "Painting" forums combined - this makes Thantos sad :-\

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Old 07 Jan 2010, 22:04   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Recent Changes to the Enclave Access

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tau-killer
If you're asking what I think you're asking then my answer essentially remains unchanged - the fact that a person has 250 posts and no karma does not imply that such a person has contributed nothing to the forum, and I am alarmed that you are holding such an attitude. There is far more to the healthy life of an online community than the writing of essays.
I think you've got the karma system as it is currently being applied a little skewed. The first point of karma is essentially the "encouragement karma" for members who show willingness to help their fellow members, whether or not that's an essay or just some general pointers on how to paint a Tau better.

This does not make karma pointless because karma becomes harder to get as a member get more, but that's beside the point.
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Old 07 Jan 2010, 22:24   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Recent Changes to the Enclave Access

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasta Tuner (FT)
This does not make karma pointless because karma becomes harder to get as a member get more, but that's beside the point.
That's not really entirely true... :P
There are a few things universally accepted as karma worthy that you can get over and over easily enough, you just generally have to be skilled. :P
[hr]

On the subject of the first karma point. My "encouragement" karma point definitely set me straight. I didn't care that others had tens of times the number I did, I was determined to do right and get more. Most of the time, anyways.
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Old 07 Jan 2010, 23:19   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Recent Changes to the Enclave Access

I agree with FT here as there are quite a few members that lost acess just due to posts as they were under 100. How have they really contributed much in 100 posts in terms of 40K help compared to nearly every other member? Also I kind of like the karma restriction as it just ensures that the person has helped so long as it doesn't start being given away to allow acess.

Which is another thing... I think people should stop givving people a higher post count just so they can get into the enclave as there is a ****ing RESTRICTION not a GUIDLINE, when doing a test for something like an A level thy don't bloody go " Well he has written a few sentences let's just imgaine the rest were good and give him an A". What I'm trying to get at is that the system only works if people actually follow it and that means stop avoiding the restrictions and shitting on those of us that have actually earned their acess without asking or spamming our way instead by helping out.

Also one thing about Karma is it is ridiculously inconsistent. I have seen small pictures some one drew in 5 minutes on paint get Karma when some tacticas/ really well painted minis don't. There needs to be a more consistent use of it.
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Old 07 Jan 2010, 23:30   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Recent Changes to the Enclave Access

Quote:
Also I kind of like the karma restriction as it just ensures that the person has helped so long as it doesn't start being given away to allow acess.
So people like me for example, who have made over 1000 non enclave posts that people such as yourself, haven't deemed worthy of karma, aren't helpful.

How much have I contributed in those 1000 posts in the 40k section of the forum? Apparently nothing according to my Karma up untill a few hours ago, when i recieved my encoragement Karma.

Who is to say that welcoming new members and pointing them in the right direction for the first time, is less of a contribution than a few pictures of a well painted mini? Don't get me wrong, we have some of the best painters and customisers I have ever seen here at TO, but do those pictures contribute in the same way as the guys who just help out newer members, of course not, but both are essential to the running of this site, and both actions are Karma worthy.
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Old 07 Jan 2010, 23:41   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Recent Changes to the Enclave Access

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Originally Posted by The Man They Call Jayne
Quote:
Also I kind of like the karma restriction as it just ensures that the person has helped so long as it doesn't start being given away to allow acess.
So people like me for example, who have made over 1000 non enclave posts that people such as yourself, haven't deemed worthy of karma, aren't helpful.

How much have I contributed in those 1000 posts in the 40k section of the forum? Apparently nothing according to my Karma up untill a few hours ago, when i recieved my encoragement Karma.

Who is to say that welcoming new members and pointing them in the right direction for the first time, is less of a contribution than a few pictures of a well painted mini? Don't get me wrong, we have some of the best painters and customisers I have ever seen here at TO, but do those pictures contribute in the same way as the guys who just help out newer members, of course not, but both are essential to the running of this site, and both actions are Karma worthy.
Welcoming new members shouldn't really be done with anything more in mind than helping them get around and acclimated to the site. I believe I've made some very good introductions and Tau-centric suggestions there but my copy/paste suggestion that I've been fine tuning for months was never made with karma in mind, merely to get people up to speed and running as quickly as possible to use our full site capabilities.
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