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Who knows about Knights? (and not the Rosen variety)
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Old 25 May 2010, 19:11   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Who knows about Knights? (and not the Rosen variety)

The pictures Skullreken posted are of the "Type II" Knight Paladin - easily the most iconic (and common) of the Knight varieties.

Aha! Good pic for you!

http://zachary.org/games/gw/epic8.jpg

That shows the original Knights. As you can see, the Lancers don't go for working arms; they either have a single gun-arm, or nothing!

I also found a few more machines that came later... and it seems that the later ones did pack Titan guns... but since the Quake Cannon was officially "too big" for a Warhound and somehow mounted on a Knight, I am going to dismiss this as just plain silly and put it in the same category as "TARDIS Drop Pods" and "Everything by C.S. Goto".

Anyway, more pics.

Pretty sure this is the Knight Baron:
http://uppix.net/5/9/6/b701341177550...cc430558tt.jpg
Looks like some form of laser / macro cannon and a spear / missile / missile-spear.

Next:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat94/cat1994097-03.jpg
Knight Errants packed a "Thermal Cannon" and Power Fist. Acceptable.
The Knight Crusader, on the other hand, is just plain silly. Twin-Lascannon (fine - count it as Turbo-Lasers now) and a QUAKE Cannon? Warhounds can't mount that!

Anyway, you now have some food for thought. Enjoy. :P
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Old 25 May 2010, 23:02   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Who knows about Knights? (and not the Rosen variety)

Hey FYI Bell of Lost Souls has some PMDs that give an idea of Knights in 40k. Go to downloads & its Lords of Battle. They have pics from what I'm assuming are Armorcast and Epic models. The Lancer they have shown has two arms, one being a close combat "lance" and the Paladin has a heavy bolter built in its head.
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Old 25 May 2010, 23:35   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Who knows about Knights? (and not the Rosen variety)

BoLS states Knights have Voids, which both the Adeptus Titanicus rules and Mechanicum states to be incorrect.
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Old 26 May 2010, 02:00   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Who knows about Knights? (and not the Rosen variety)

Hmm this stuff works for what I had in mind. I'll be taking some creative licensing of course but most of it will be as is. Just going to modernize some of the weapons & the 'quake cannon' will be replaced an upsized plasma weapon. Something between an Executioner & blastgun. Sweet the scene I wanted to write is preserved. Thanks.

One last thing before I'm done though. I've read Titanicus & the old Titan comic & the way that Titans were controlled are far different from the way they're controlled 'now' despite the same author wrote both. So my last question is how are Knights controlled? Do they utilize the MIU that Titans are equipped with or is their means of control more pedestrian (pun not intended)? I think a Mind Interface Unit is cool & would help add some interesting scenario possibilities later but if they're not controlled this way I suppose I could make that work too.

Off topic now but after all this I kinda want to repurpose the Acolyte I made a while back as a Warden. Just replace the TLLCs I put on it with multi-lasers or heavy bolters & it's basically exactly what Wargamer described. Probably run it with BOLS rules & just swap out the void shield with a pair power fields & viola, instant fluffy Knight.
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Old 08 Jun 2010, 20:28   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Who knows about Knights? (and not the Rosen variety)

On the subject of the Quake Cannon:
In the same way the Shadowsword Volcano cannon is much smaller than the Warlords, the Banesword mounts a much smaller Quake Cannon, with very similar rules to the Warlord. (sorry, I don't know much about it Fluffwise) Thus it might be feasible to imagine The knight mounting a Quake cannon of that size rather than the Warlord sized one? (which, as wargamer said, is utterly ridiculous. I could MAYBE see a warhound carrying one if it was attached to both arms, but certaintly not a knight)
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Old 08 Jun 2010, 20:37   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Who knows about Knights? (and not the Rosen variety)

Well, while it's back from the shallow grave I might as well add something I found the other day.


I don't recall ever fighting against one before Apoc, so you'll forgive that I didn't have a memory of the weapon then.

In fourth edition, pre-Apoc, as well as third edition a Warhound titans' plasma weapons were it's main titan killer weapons, not the lazors with D strength now.

In Titanicus, the Warhounds use them to this effect as well. I don't know if this will help on the knights weaponry, but it may. *Shrugs*
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Old 08 Jun 2010, 21:42   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Who knows about Knights? (and not the Rosen variety)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimatedragonlord
On the subject of the Quake Cannon:
In the same way the Shadowsword Volcano cannon is much smaller than the Warlords, the Banesword mounts a much smaller Quake Cannon, with very similar rules to the Warlord. (sorry, I don't know much about it Fluffwise) Thus it might be feasible to imagine The knight mounting a Quake cannon of that size rather than the Warlord sized one? (which, as wargamer said, is utterly ridiculous. I could MAYBE see a warhound carrying one if it was attached to both arms, but certaintly not a knight)
There is no "smaller" Volcano Cannon - both the Shadowsword and Warlord use the same sized weapon. The difference is that the Shadowsword's weapon is so demanding in energy it needs to switch off its engines to shunt the power to the gun. If there is a distinction between the two, no game system has ever made it - and that includes Epic, where this sort of vehicle belongs.


As for Apocalypse... it is fanwank written by some 10 year old on a sugar-high. It is not 40K. It is not even close. If you want to compare the weapons on Titans and similar, go ask your local Epic player.

On that note... Dexter is correct. The primary "anti-Titan" weapon for the Warhound is the Plasma Blastgun. Turbo-lasers are powerful, but their strength lies in rate of fire more than sheer destructive force. Of course, the problem with the Blastgun is that if you screw up, or it just wasn't powerful enough, it has a very long reload time.

Ultimately though, the Warhound is not meant to be used against other Titans. It is a Scout Titan - an outrider, vanguard patrol and escort unit. Warhounds are best used alongside larger Titans such as Reavers or Warlords, or deployed against enemy tanks.


In short, when consulting source material for your Knights, I advise you to take Apocalypse, shred the pages into squares and use them for toilet paper. At least then it has a purpose.
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Old 09 Jun 2010, 19:48   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Who knows about Knights? (and not the Rosen variety)

The 40k version of the Shadowswords template is a quarter of the size or the Warlords. Smaller barrel, smaller area-of-effect but same power. I'm not mega familar with the epic rules (I dislike reding from a PDF, and my parents don't want me to waste ink on printing a book I don't really need), particularly as it only has rules for a few of the races, but I'm fairly sure the Volcano Cannon is MW2+, Titan Killer D3. This is roughly equivalent to S, minus the whole, 'I kill everything without trying' facade. (Better against infantry, worse against Super-heavy vehicles). I don't think either of them have blasts, but as I said, I may be wrong.
The Whole quake cannon thing could be very similar - same power, smaller barrel, smaller Area-of-effect. I don't think Epic really represents blasts, other than really large ones, so we could put the difference down to the smaller scale. (if you take 10 and 11, then divide them by ten, the difference drops from 1 to 0.1. This is likely something similar.
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Old 09 Jun 2010, 20:02   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Who knows about Knights? (and not the Rosen variety)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimatedragonlord
The 40k version of the Shadowswords template is a quarter of the size or the Warlords. Smaller barrel, smaller area-of-effect but same power. I'm not mega familar with the epic rules (I dislike reding from a PDF, and my parents don't want me to waste ink on printing a book I don't really need), particularly as it only has rules for a few of the races, but I'm fairly sure the Volcano Cannon is MW2+, Titan Killer D3. This is roughly equivalent to S, minus the whole, 'I kill everything without trying' facade. (Better against infantry, worse against Super-heavy vehicles). I don't think either of them have blasts, but as I said, I may be wrong.
The Whole quake cannon thing could be very similar - same power, smaller barrel, smaller Area-of-effect. I don't think Epic really represents blasts, other than really large ones, so we could put the difference down to the smaller scale. (if you take 10 and 11, then divide them by ten, the difference drops from 1 to 0.1. This is likely something similar.
In 40K, a Lascannon is Str 9 AP 2. A Demolisher Cannon is Str 10 AP 2. A Volcano Cannon is Str 10 AP 1, Titan Killer.

In Epic, a Lascannon is AT 5+. This means that you need to roll a 5 or 6 to hit an enemy tank. It cannot harm infantry.
The Demolisher Cannon is AP3+/AT 4+. This means it hits infantry on a 3+, and tanks on a 4+.
The Volcano Cannon is MW2+ Titan Killer D3. This means it hits anything on a 2+, ignores Armour Saves, ignores Reinforced Armour (basically a second armour save) and removes D3 Structure Points a hit.

The reason I want to compare these weapons is that 40K is clearly not balanced for the uber gun. Demolisher Cannons are one of the best guns in 40K for raw damage, but in Epic they are passable weapons at best. A very good infantry killer, and a good choice for popping tanks providing you deploy a big enough force of them. Lascannons in 40K are things tanks cower from. Lascannons in Epic are weapons people shrug at.

Yet the Volcano Cannon is a monster. Leman Russ? Dead. Land Raider? Dead. Terminator squad? Gone. Titan? Baneblade? Not a hope in hell. Titans? If they don't have shields, they are going to hurt like hell. There are very few weapons that invoke such a sense bowel-loosening dread as the Volcano Cannon... and nowhere in Epic does it say the Shadowsword has a 'baby' Volcano Cannon. It has always had the full-sized version.

Like I said, ignore Apocalypse. Apocalypse is trying to squeeze Epic-scale weapons into 40K, and the result is laughable... because the only way to do it is to give them rules like "remove half your army whenever I roll a 2+ on 4D6."

40K is not meant for huge weapons like that. You are not supposed to be able to field Volcano Cannons or Plasma Blastguns or other monstrously powerful weapons. They are several orders of magnitude more powerful than anything else in the system, and thus they break the system!

Apocalypse is always wrong on matters of 40K. Always. The only way to field Titan-grade guns in 40K is to water them down to the point that they are a real and potent threat, without being so much of a threat they can insta-gib a 1,500pt army in one shot.
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Old 10 Jun 2010, 22:10   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Who knows about Knights? (and not the Rosen variety)

I'm not saying the Volcano Cannon is Less potent, but anyone can see the barrel on a Shadowswords Volcano Cannon is far smaller than the barrel of a Warlords Volcano cannon. I would imagine if you mounted the Warlords volcano cannon on a Baneblade chassis, it would look like a ridiculously sized Bombard/Colossus. What I'm saying, is that overall, they have roughly the same power, but the Shaddowsword hits a smaller area. It's not represented in epic because it's not worth it - the blast would be titan. It's like I said before - if one Weapon covers 1" sq. in 40k (a small area I know) and one covers 4, the difference is 3. Divide that by ten for the smaller scale in epic, and it hits .3" sq. more, barely worth calculating. Epic doesn't represent smaller blasts, because they're fairly insignificant, but there IS a difference. Either that, or the GW team that worken on epic failed epically.
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