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Imperiums Technology and Ours
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Old 20 May 2010, 17:05   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperiums Technology and Ours

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermin Lord (FT)
I agree, they won't develop technology to rival that of the rest of the Imperium, mainly due to the fact that if they did, the Adeptus Mechanicus would step in and either destroy the planet out of hand, or they would turn the entire populous to servitors for their own use.
I think they're more likely to turn them all into servitors. Destroying an entire planet is a waste of resources, infrastructure and manpower.
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Old 20 May 2010, 17:33   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperiums Technology and Ours

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Originally Posted by Khanaris
Not really. We have no idea what the design considerations were that led to their construction.
Neither does the Imperium, apparently.

Quote:
They might have been ideal. You don't know much of anything about the technology that goes into their construction. It might work better with those designs than it would with a shorter vehicle. There is some level of suspension of disbelief involved, but at some point you have to realize that some of these things make sense "in their own setting", and that setting is itself fictional.
That's the thing I find bothersome about alot of Imperial and even Xenos hardware; it doesn't even make sense in context.

As an easy example, Space Marines make awful space marines. They're huge, and they wear bulky power armour that makes them even bigger (and Terminators are even worse)--which is exactly what you don't want in the confined spaces of a starship.

Hell, the Tau and Eldar could probably foil an Astartes boarding action by designing their ships with the doors only big enough for one crew member at a time to pass through, and the corridors only wide enough for two. The Astartes would have to walk single file, possibly even sideways, down the hallways, and then they wouldn't be able to fit through the doors at all...

A Leman Russ weighs 70 tonnes. It has a top speed of 40 km/h on a road. An M1A1 HA Abrams weighs 67 tonnes and has a top road speed of 67 km/h. It's also half as tall and not as wide, though its a bit longer. The height wouldn't be so bad if it were a DEW platform... but the variants that mount DEWs as main guns are uncommon. The primary variant mounts a ****-off-calibre howitzer, which means it doesn't need to see its target to engage it. The Leman Russ also mounts sponsoons, which adds significantly to the crew (+40%) and power requirements (should slow it down), mechanical complexity (breaks down more often because there are more ways it can do so), height (just look at it), and thus target profile of the vehicle, and reduces the volume avaliable for the (already low-capacity) main gun's magazine (an Abrams carries forty shells or so for the main gun. The Leman russ carries five.) Seriously, this thing just begs to be ambushed with any of the myriad man-portable anti-tank weapons the Imperium and Xenos have at their disposal, or jammed with Cyclopes refitted with lascannons or even krak missile launchers, if power's an issue...

I could go on for pages and pages. :P
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Old 20 May 2010, 17:37   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperiums Technology and Ours

It is not strictly true to say the Imperium does not innovate, it is just their innovations seem to be somewhat limited. Obviously, most of what we have to go on is militarily themed, but even there we have some interesting examples. Here are but a few:

Predator Annihilators: Took the Mechanicum a thousand years to decide putting Lascannons on a Predator was intended all along. Of course, the Space Marines had by this point been using them for nine hundred years - clearly, the Astartes must have 'innovated' these designs, as the Mechanicum would not have built Annihilators for them in the interim.

Marauder Destroyers: So, your Marauders are all grounded on Armageddon because the skies belong to Orks. Damn. If only they had a bomber capable of low-level attack runs, and sporting enough firepower to knock out a tank column in its frontal gun bay. Sod the Mechanicum, just get every Marauder on station and retrofit them to pack six Autocannons in the nose cone!

Thunderers: The Destroyer Tank Hunter has lost its turbo laser. Tell you what, why don't we do a field-repair and swap that burned out laser for a spare demolisher cannon? Voila! New tank!

Land Raider Helios: We need artillery, but our Whirlwinds are too flimsy. Our Land Raiders, on the other hand, are not flimsy... fetch a Techmarine!

Bruennhilde: Give a Death Korps squad a tractor and what do they do with it? They turn it into a gun platform with a troop transport bay on the back. Well done.

Siegfried: Give a Death Krops a tractor, some armour plating and a spare Multilaser and what do they do with it? They turn it into a light tank. I swear, the Krieg are the only people in the universe who actually like tractors...

Ragnarok: When Leman Russes just aren't tough enough, the Death Korps mount a bunker on treads. This thing cannot possibly be an STC design; STC designs don't look that Orky!


I could probably go on a fair bit more, but I think the point is made; whether it is a weapon swap or scratch building, the Imperium can and does innovate technology. However, it seems to do so only in a situation where existing "sanctified" technology is either unavailable or just won't cut it.
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Old 20 May 2010, 18:08   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperiums Technology and Ours

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
It is not strictly true to say the Imperium does not innovate, it is just their innovations seem to be somewhat limited. Obviously, most of what we have to go on is militarily themed, but even there we have some interesting examples. Here are but a few:

Predator Annihilators: Took the Mechanicum a thousand years to decide putting Lascannons on a Predator was intended all along. Of course, the Space Marines had by this point been using them for nine hundred years - clearly, the Astartes must have 'innovated' these designs, as the Mechanicum would not have built Annihilators for them in the interim.
... It took a hundred years to figure out that they'd want to use a tank for killing other tanks? What the hell did they do before then?

Quote:
Marauder Destroyers: So, your Marauders are all grounded on Armageddon because the skies belong to Orks. Damn. If only they had a bomber capable of low-level attack runs, and sporting enough firepower to knock out a tank column in its frontal gun bay. Sod the Mechanicum, just get every Marauder on station and retrofit them to pack six Autocannons in the nose cone!
That was probably one of their smarter decisions, though it would've been better to have them pointing out the side so that the plane wouldn't be required to approach the target to engage it.

Quote:
Thunderers: The Destroyer Tank Hunter has lost its turbo laser. Tell you what, why don't we do a field-repair and swap that burned out laser for a spare demolisher cannon? Voila! New tank!
What role does the demolisher cannon serve?

Quote:
Land Raider Helios: We need artillery, but our Whirlwinds are too flimsy. Our Land Raiders, on the other hand, are not flimsy... fetch a Techmarine!
If your MRLS is getting hammered, its because you aren't defending it properly. Putting it on a tank platform isn't a bad idea, though, just more expensive. Putting it on something like a Land Raider might be getting a little carried away, though.

Quote:
Bruennhilde: Give a Death Korps squad a tractor and what do they do with it? They turn it into a gun platform with a troop transport bay on the back. Well done.
What kind of gun are we talking about here?

Quote:
Siegfried: Give a Death Krops a tractor, some armour plating and a spare Multilaser and what do they do with it? They turn it into a light tank. I swear, the Krieg are the only people in the universe who actually like tractors...
I suppose its cheaper than a Leman, but still, a multilaser? That's it?

Quote:
Ragnarok: When Leman Russes just aren't tough enough, the Death Korps mount a bunker on treads. This thing cannot possibly be an STC design; STC designs don't look that Orky!
That sounds like its just begging to get meltabombed. I hope it has good fire arcs and some heavy stubbers...
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Old 20 May 2010, 18:12   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperiums Technology and Ours

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Thunder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
Not really. We have no idea what the design considerations were that led to their construction.
Neither does the Imperium, apparently.
The Imperium does pretty well with them against every opponent they have been called upon to face. They might do better if they could design a vehicle for every alien planet and species they had to fight, but the designs they have have proven to be effective on a wide cross-section.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
Predator Annihilators: Took the Mechanicum a thousand years to decide putting Lascannons on a Predator was intended all along. Of course, the Space Marines had by this point been using them for nine hundred years - clearly, the Astartes must have 'innovated' these designs, as the Mechanicum would not have built Annihilators for them in the interim.
But the Mechanicum may well have been right. The Astartes were able to swap out the weapons because the vehicles were designed to make that possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
I could probably go on a fair bit more, but I think the point is made; whether it is a weapon swap or scratch building, the Imperium can and does innovate technology.
Weapon swaps I agree with. But as stated, that is only because they are using platforms that were designed to be modular. It still doesn't really speak to any significant R&D ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Thunder
That sounds like its just begging to get meltabombed. I hope it has good fire arcs and some heavy stubbers...
Maybe now you are starting to understand why so many Imperial vehicles use sponsons?
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Old 20 May 2010, 18:24   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperiums Technology and Ours

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Thunder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
Not really. We have no idea what the design considerations were that led to their construction.
Neither does the Imperium, apparently.
The Imperium does pretty well with them against every opponent they have been called upon to face. They might do better if they could design a vehicle for every alien planet and species they had to fight, but the designs they have have proven to be effective on a wide cross-section.
And yet they have different "patterns" of their basic vehicles, with a large variation in structure and armament. They don't need one for every planet, just certain archetypes. Its not like they have infinite variation to deal with.

Orks don't use many DEWs, traitors use a few and both use a shitload of projectiles. So why is it that the Leman Russ' designers don't appear to have given any thought whatsoever to ballistic angling?

Also, how does the bloody suspension work? :P

And really, if the Imperium does well with them, its in spite of their deficiencies, not because of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
Maybe now you are starting to understand why so many Imperial vehicles use sponsons?
Oh, I understand the reason given, but there are better solutions. Secondary turrets (like this one on the M60A3) don't require giant holes in the hull, or huge protrusions from the sides of the hull that only make it harder to maneuver in tight quarters.

They could make the vehicle faster and shorter, so that the enemy has to be shorter to hide from the pintle mounts.

If that's not enough, they could have the main gun on a turret in the rear and the heavy bolter in the front on a second turret, or in some kind of pintle mount on the commander's cupola, perhaps. Make it remote-controlled. In the case of the turret, link two HBs if it makes you feel better. I wouldn't put a lascannon there, though, since you want those to be high up somewhere to maximize range. Perhaps a secondary turret on the primary, but I doubt that'd be worth the added complexity.

Alternatively; just use other tanks. The Leman Russ is virtually immune to heavy bolter fire, so, if neccessary, in a three-tank formation, have LR1 cover LR2, LR2 cover LR3, and LR3 cover LR1. If things get too close they shoot at the stuff near the tank.
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Old 20 May 2010, 21:07   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperiums Technology and Ours

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Thunder
... It took a hundred years to figure out that they'd want to use a tank for killing other tanks? What the hell did they do before then?
Before the Annihilator, the Predator had an Autocannon with Heavy Bolter sponsons. Autocannons can still go tank hunting. Remember that the Annihilator was created to fight Chaos Space Marines.

Quote:
But the Mechanicum may well have been right. The Astartes were able to swap out the weapons because the vehicles were designed to make that possible.
The original Predators were equipped with Long Fang Lascannons, so I doubt that was a factor.

Quote:
What role does the demolisher cannon serve?
It turns a useless Destroyer into a close-support tank, acting in the same role as a Vindicator. The exact weapon doesn't actually matter much, the point is that the Thunderer is a field-conversion.

Quote:
If your MRLS is getting hammered, its because you aren't defending it properly. Putting it on a tank platform isn't a bad idea, though, just more expensive. Putting it on something like a Land Raider might be getting a little carried away, though.
Whirlwinds, and indeed most tanks, are completely useless against flyers. Land Raiders, by contrast, are pretty hard to pop for anything but the biggest piece of ordnance. Space Marines needed a way to make a Whirlwind immune to Ork strafing runs, so they fitted it to a Land Raider.

Quote:
What kind of gun are we talking about here?
Heavy Stubber, but keep in mind this is a tractor.

Quote:
I suppose its cheaper than a Leman, but still, a multilaser? That's it?
Once again; tractor!

Quote:
That sounds like its just begging to get meltabombed. I hope it has good fire arcs and some heavy stubbers...
Russian Tank mentality; if someone blows up your Ragnarok, it's got twenty mates to avenge it. As I recall, the main gun had a 360 fire arc, and it has two heavy stubbers mounted on small turrets / cupolas on the forward sections of the Hull. Either way, it is a scratch built trench warfare assault vehicle.
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Old 20 May 2010, 21:15   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperiums Technology and Ours

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Thunder
Oh, I understand the reason given, but there are better solutions. Secondary turrets (like this one on the M60A3) don't require giant holes in the hull, or huge protrusions from the sides of the hull that only make it harder to maneuver in tight quarters.
Weren't you talking about ease of melta-bombing before? That tank wouldn't stand a chance. The treads aren't protected in the slightest. At least the Russ keeps the workings behind armor. Pintle mounts are all well and good when you assume that you are going to be able to breath outside of the tank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
The original Predators were equipped with Long Fang Lascannons, so I doubt that was a factor.
Why? They aren't that different. Lascannons already existed at the time the Predator was designed, since the older Destructors and Land Raiders were already using them on sponsons. Razorbacks were already using them as turret weapons. It isn't exactly a massive jump.

The Brunnhilde and the Siegfried are both variants of a civilian STC vehicle called the Land Crawler, discovered by the same person who found the Land Speeder and Land Raider templates (and happened to have a convenient name).
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Old 20 May 2010, 21:32   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperiums Technology and Ours

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Thunder
Oh, I understand the reason given, but there are better solutions. Secondary turrets (like this one on the M60A3) don't require giant holes in the hull, or huge protrusions from the sides of the hull that only make it harder to maneuver in tight quarters.
Weren't you talking about ease of melta-bombing before? That tank wouldn't stand a chance. The treads aren't protected in the slightest. At least the Russ keeps the workings behind armor.
Eh? I wasn't putting the M60 forward as an ideal tank form, I was just talking about the secondary turret.

Quote:
Pintle mounts are all well and good when you assume that you are going to be able to breath outside of the tank.
It's an enclosed turret. Alternatively you could turn it into a remote weapons station. If they can do it with a Cyclops, they can do it with wires and a cupola.
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Old 20 May 2010, 21:36   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperiums Technology and Ours

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Originally Posted by Ryan Thunder
Eh? I wasn't putting the M60 forward as an ideal tank form, I was just talking about the secondary turret.
The point of sponsons is that they are low and independent of the main turret. Putting another turret even higher doesn't seem like a good answer. It works for us, but we don't have to design vehicles to fight Orks or other alien gribblies that can run up close and tear armor apart with their bare hands.
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