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Some research
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Old 17 Aug 2007, 00:34   #1 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Some research

I'm planning on doing a project in the near future, and before I can think about starting, I need some info. Some may be easier to answer then others, but here goes.

1) How fast do skimmers move*? I'm not talking about in the game of 40k, I mean if they were real, how fast would they travel, 300mph, 500?
2) How far from the skimmers hover from the ground and what would be their maximum height*?
3) How big are the actual models (I'll hopefully be needing all three measurements for each model - width, height and length)*? Preferrably in MM/CM but I can convert Imperial ones

*I'm only referring to Fast skimmers in this post, like the Falcon, Fire Prism, Eldar/Dark Eldar Jetbikes, Vypers and Land Speeders.

So if you guys could answer me each of these questions for each Fast Skimmer, that would be apprecitive. Oh and I'm being tight lipped about why I need this information for the moment . And I may need further information, so watch this space
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Old 17 Aug 2007, 00:41   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some research

iirc, the Falcon's stats are thus (from CA:2004):
Max Speed: 2500 kph (1533 mph)
Max Altitude: 1000 metres (3280 ft)
Avg. Altitude: 15 metres (50 ft)

These were given somewhere on the Tau boards, can't remember where.
Tetra
Speed: 240 kph (149 mph)

Piranha
speed: 750 kph (466 mph)
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Old 17 Aug 2007, 00:47   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some research

AFAIK the figures are from one of the Imperial Armour Volumes, though I'm unsure as to which one.
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Old 17 Aug 2007, 03:03   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some research

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravager Zero
iirc, the Falcon's stats are thus (from CA:2004):
Max Speed: 2500 kph (1533 mph)
Max Altitude: 1000 metres (3280 ft)
Avg. Altitude: 15 metres (50 ft)

These were given somewhere on the Tau boards, can't remember where.
Tetra
Speed: 240 kph (149 mph)

Piranha
speed: 750 kph (466 mph)
...No wonder Falcons are hard to shoot down!
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Old 19 Aug 2007, 03:46   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some research

[size=12pt]Tau Skimmers[/size]

Dimensions and Maximum Speeds


As per IA3, the Ordos Xenos provides these statistics for the Tau skimmers:

Hammerhead
Weight: 24 Tonnes
Length: 8.25 M
Width: 6.8 M
Height: 4.1 M
Max Recorded Speed: 70KPH

Devilfish
Weight: 14 Tonnes
Length: 8.25 M
Width: 6.8 M
Height: 3.2 M
Max Recorded Speed: 75KPH

Sky Ray
Weight: 24 Tonnes
Length: 8.25 M
Width: 6.8 M
Height: 5 M
Max Recorded Speed: 70KPH

Tetra
Weight: 1.8 Tonnes
Length: 4.8 M
Width: 2.75 M
Height: 1.75 M
Max Recorded Speed: 350KPH

Piranha
Weight: 4.5 Tonnes
Length: 5.7 M
Width: 6.4 M
Height: 2.4 M
Max Recorded Speed: 160KPH

Keep in mind that these are max recorded speeds by the Ordos Xenos. It is quite likely (almost inevitably) that each of the Tau skimmers can travel much faster than their currently recorded statistics.

Maximum Altitudes

Regarding Maximum Altitudes, the fluff states that the anti-gravity plates provide a "cushion" beneath the Skimmers over which they use their jet engines to propel themselves forward on.

Physics, however, debunks this GW muff-up of a "Cushion", and provides two possible solutions to this issue:

Option 1 - The anti-gravity technology works by simply nullifying the force of gravity. If that's so, a Tau craft would need its thrusters to maneuver in all situations.

Option 2 - The anti-gravity technology works by repelling the gravitational field. As such, it would be able to raise the craft by increasing power, or lower it by decreasing power.

---

IA3 explains that it's most likely the former; option 1, giving us this outcome:

Option 1 "Laws of Physics"
1) A Hammerhead's Weight is negated in its entirety, requiring its Maneuvering Thrusters for (obviously) maneuvering.
2) A Hammerhead would ascend/gain altitude by pointing its Maneuvering Thrusters towards the ground.
3) A Hammerhead would descend/decrease altitude by reducing power to its Grav-Plates or pointing its Maneuvering Thrusters towards the sky.
4) A Hammerhead's Maximum Altitude depends entirely on the Maximum Thrust of its Jet Engines (Unknown) vs. its Mass (24 Tonnes).

Also keep in mind, this scenario is at 1G, and we don't know at this time how many Gs a Tau anti-grav plate can nullify, but it's probably quite a few.

In conclusion, we can deduce that a Skimmer could theoretically attain actual "flight" by simply pointing its engines down for a time, then once at the pilot's desired altitude simply returning them aft, but it isn't likely they could escape a planet's atmosphere or break orbit under the sole power of their two maneuvering thrusters.

---

We can also deduce that with null-gravity, a Skimmer such as a Hammerhead or Devilfish can theoretically attain supersonic flight; you just need the patience to gather enough speed on an underpowered engine (that's only supposed to go 70KPH according to IA3), but that's a topic for another post.

---

Hope this helps for the Tau's side of the house.
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Old 19 Aug 2007, 08:53   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some research

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doombringer
Physics, however, debunks this GW muff-up of a "Cushion", and provides two possible solutions to this issue:

Option 1 - The anti-gravity technology works by simply nullifying the force of gravity. If that's so, a Tau craft would need its thrusters to maneuver in all situations.

Option 2 - The anti-gravity technology works by repelling the gravitational field. As such, it would be able to raise the craft by increasing power, or lower it by decreasing power.
Doesn't IA really role both of those into one?

I mean the Grav motors repel gravitational attraction, but lose power as they travel away from mass. Hence the vehicle has to use its thrusters to gain attitude as it does so losing speed.

Hence close to the ground the skimmer can travel faster that at attitude, as all the thrusters power can be all put into forward motion.

If the Tau could nullify gravity totally then why don't their spacecraft come down onto a planet and blast away from 300ft? I mean we have the Manta, but that is a cross between spacecraft and skimmer anyhow.

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Old 19 Aug 2007, 09:39   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some research

It's impossible to have both, by virtue of their application.

IA3's only quote on the subject is that the Hammerhead generates "an anti-grav 'cushion' to float on" which is inherently a flawed and impossible statement as per every Physicist I've ever talked to.

IA3 then goes on to say that the Hammerhead is "then being driven forwards by two powerful, multi-directional jet engines. By pivoting the engines downwards these help give the vehicle extra lift, to clear obstacles; by pivoting backwards they give a Hammerhead forward momentum."

This is more in keeping with Option 1 than Option 2, as if Option 2 were in effect, the Hammerhead pilot need only increase power to his tank's grav-plates to repel him more and gain altitude without the assistance of his jet engines.

---

The grav plates, rather than actively repelling against a CoG, apparently simply work to nullify the vehicle's weight, and no more than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
Hence close to the ground the skimmer can travel faster that at attitude, as all the thrusters power can be all put into forward motion.
If the vehicle's weight is entirely nullified, regardless of the distance to the CoG (the more likely version, considering the Tau may have to work on worlds with a significantly longer distance to the CoG or significantly higher gravitational pull), then the only limiting factor to how fast or high a vehicle could go is its thrust limitations when compared to the mass of the vehicle.

This means that a Hammerhead tank, without downward gravitational pull, could fly just as fast at 3m above the ground as it could at 40,000ft (not taking into consideration air resistance and drag. which would suggest it could fly faster at the higher altitude).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
If the Tau could nullify gravity totally then why don't their spacecraft come down onto a planet and blast away from 300ft? I mean we have the Manta, but that is a cross between spacecraft and skimmer anyhow.
It's quite possible that they can't nullify gravity totally for something with as much mass as a spacecraft, especially coming so close as 300ft! ;D

Perhaps the Manta is the Tau's "upper limit" of grav-plate effectiveness against a body with 1G at the surface?

While we can see from various artwork that Tau spacecraft can enter extreme low orbit, it's probably not very likely that they can maneuver very well any closer given air resistance, friction, possible grav-plate limitations, etc.

-Doom
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Old 19 Aug 2007, 17:14   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some research

I mean I'm only thinking that assuming the Tau craft is at 'full power' and the increase in displacement x (In blue) requires no extra energy. The power of the thrusters forward momentum would have to be cut in order for the additional power to be input into vertical momentum.



Now assuming that displacement x requires no extra energy than the gain in GPE generated by vertical displacement results in GPE being gained for free.

(Where GPE is Gravitational Potentail Energy and is calculated by; GPE=hxgxm where h is vertical displacement, g is the gravitational acceleration an m is the mass of the object being 'lifted' in the gravitational field.)

Your vessel is gaining height without any extra energy being needed to lift it which means GPE goes up while input energy stays constant. Conservation of energy anybody?

Thus I think that by increasing displacement x then a corresponding amount of GPE energy should be expended by the vessel in order to maintain that height.

[hr]

Thats conventional physics and this is sci-fi. But if the vessel negates a gravitational field completely and so GPE is no issue then the centrifugal force and momentum of the planets spin on the vessel would result in it being flug out into space, as their is no centrifical force acting on the vessel anymore. Which I don't think happens, and is certainly not desirable.

I mean I'm no expert on IA (I've only ever read my mates books once and don't own them myself) but my knowledge of physics tells me that certain things just can't happen without something else happening.

Genmotty
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Old 20 Aug 2007, 00:37   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some research

Thanks guys, now all that I'll be needing really would be the same sort of thing for the Imperial Land Speeder . And interesting theories, although I'd have to say I'm more in the camp that anti-grav vehicles help to nullify the weight of the body being lifted, at east to a certain extent.
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Old 20 Aug 2007, 01:29   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some research

Okay, after some deliberation with my partner in crime, we've reviewed your diagram and came up with this response:

Gravitational Potential Energy and Acceleration Vectors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
I mean I'm only thinking that assuming the Tau craft is at 'full power' and the increase in displacement x (In blue) requires no extra energy. The power of the thrusters forward momentum would have to be cut in order for the additional power to be input into vertical momentum.

Now assuming that displacement x requires no extra energy than the gain in GPE generated by vertical displacement results in GPE being gained for free.

(Where GPE is Gravitational Potentail Energy and is calculated by; GPE=hxgxm where h is vertical displacement, g is the gravitational acceleration an m is the mass of the object being 'lifted' in the gravitational field.)

Your vessel is gaining height without any extra energy being needed to lift it which means GPE goes up while input energy stays constant. Conservation of energy anybody?

Thus I think that by increasing displacement x then a corresponding amount of GPE energy should be expended by the vessel in order to maintain that height.
Here, your example is flawed. You're mixing Option 1 and Option 2, which equals mass confusion. In Option 1, the vehicle isn't gaining any extra height without energy expended to lift it. If the Anti-Grav Plates nullified a percentage of a Hammerhead's weight (rather than actively repelling and adding lift vectors), then there is no Gravitational Potential Energy in the equation at all, and your result would simply be H*A*M, with A = the Acceleration provided by the Jet Engines.

Your own example proved it. To move upwards, you have to pivot the engines downwards to direct energy upwards. A Hammerhead that isn't accelerating, regardless of airspeed (0kph, 30kph, 100kph, whatever) would have no vector line coming from the CoG.

In addition, there are extreme problems/differences between a grav-drive that could theoretically lift a set amount of weight, and a grav-drive that could simply nullify a percentage of an object's weight (up to 100%).

As far as our knowledge of physics goes, if a grav-drive could nullify a set amount of weight, then you could theoretically attain "negative weight", which just doesn't work... For you to have "negative gravity", you need negative vectorial acceleration, which can't happen... Which is probably why there is no way yet (even theoretically as far as I know) to 'repel' gravity itself - only theoretically nullify it.

Vector Scenario:

A) A Hammerhead is traveling on its horizontal axis at 45kph. The Pilot identifies an obstacle in front of him and decides to ascend to clear it. He commands the engines to thrust downwards at a -45° depression off the tail (pointing towards a 315° bearing as if looking at the skimmer from the left side), and his vector line would then lie in the first quadrant (upper right corner) of the vector diagram - we'll say at a 45° bearing at whatever set thrust the pilot had his throttle at at the time.

This means that the Hammerhead is now decelerating (not enough horizontal thrust to compensate for the drag) and gaining altitude (his vertical thrust/lift vector is exceeding his 'weight' or 'gravity&#39.

B) In order to compensate for the deceleration, the pilot could alter the rotation of his engines to an approx. 290° and increase throttle (thereby increasing horizontal thrust while attempting to maintain the same level of vertical thrust as he had in Scenario A), and would therefore remain at a 45kph horizontal velocity while climbing at the same rate as in Scenario A. His vector line would then be pointing straight up on the lift vector on a 360°/0°, as there's no horizontal acceleration/deceleration - only vertical...

I'll see if I can't make up a diagram later for ease of understanding - we're both kinda burnt on the subject now.

---

Centrifugal Force

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
Thats conventional physics and this is sci-fi. But if the vessel negates a gravitational field completely and so GPE is no issue then the centrifugal force and momentum of the planets spin on the vessel would result in it being flug out into space, as their is no centrifical force acting on the vessel anymore. Which I don't think happens, and is certainly not desirable.
Flawed, still. In practical terms, an AH-64D Apache helicopter with a mass of 9 tons that is hovering 100m above the Earth's surface is providing enough lift to essentially 'negate' its GPE. The GPE is still there, but thanks to the thrust that's equaling it, it can be removed from the equation.

Now, while hovering, have you ever seen an AH-64D Apache helicopter flung out of the atmosphere simply because it matched its GPE with its lift/thrust? To my knowledge, none ever have so far.

This may be an abstract example, due to the fact that the Apache requires air to attain lift, but even if negating the gravitational field completely, factors such as inertia, mass, air resistance, wind, etc. would all theoretically keep a Hammerhead semi-stable at its positional altitude above the planet's surface (with only a minor, easily-compensated-for ascent and westward drift due to the Coriolis Effect). Regardless, imagine a circle with a tangent on it, put it in an astronomical scale, and you'd find that it would take hours, if not days for a Hammerhead or Devilfish to theoretically "fling" itself out of the atmosphere.

Again, theoretically, all a Hammerhead's drone-processor would need to do was pulse it's grav-drive at regular intervals (say, 50Hz so no one would notice) between 100% Negation and 90-95% Negation to compensate for this minor gain in altitude, and there's your solution to that problem.

In conclusion, a Hammerhead's grav-drive at full power would mean 100% of the Hammerhead's weight is negated. A grav-drive at half power means 50% of the weight is negated, and so on and so forth.

---

*Whew* That one was a doozy. Been working on it for the better part of the past couple hours.

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