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Dark and Chaotic Question
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Old 16 Jul 2007, 19:59   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Dark and Chaotic Question

Are Chaos Space Marines and Dark Eldar really as unthinking/crude/barbaric as they're generally made out to be, or are they(in most cases) identical to their "vanilla" brethren, except they follow a different caling? And could the spiky/intimidating bits be a bluff then, to enhance the stories, like 40k's warpaint?

For example, are Chaos Marines "evil" because they don.t worship the Emperor, and/or want to have him regain his authority?

And for Dark Eldar...no example quite comes to mind.

How do the "evil" races see themselves, and the others?

EDIT:
Would someone mind moving this to 40k Universe? Evidently, I'm a sharp ne today.
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The divide between what gets put up on an art gallery and what gets you thrown in jail is mostly dependent on the quality of the frame, even though both are just as good for fapping.
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Old 16 Jul 2007, 20:49   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Dark and Chaotic Queston

I'd say they are evil because they torture, murder, and enslave billions for the sake of warp dwelling creatures who hunger for souls. They have given in to the extremes of negative emotions, becoming obsessed with themselves and their own gratification. They see everyone as inferior to themselves, even those on the same side.

The Imperium is also not such a nice group of folks, but they are the way they are because of the overwhelming threat presented by Chaos. You can't afford to be tolerant when one or two rogues can open a warp portal and flood a world with daemons. Chaos Marines and Dark Space Elves have taken the easy way out and sided with the forces of darkness rather than struggle to resist. This cowardice is why Chaos Marines don't get "They shall know no fear" in my opinion.

The only "good" race is arguably the Tau, and their tolerance will probably result in huge problems as they absorb more humans and other psyker races which can suffer from the perils of the warp. Not that it really matters as the Tau are going to get eaten by Hive Fleet Tyranidfanboyswrotethecodex.

I'd also note that Dark Space Elves and Chaos Marines are generally not shown as "unthinking/crude/barbaric" unless they are Khorne worshipers. That would be more Space Orks. And everyone knows the spiky bits are to get rerolls to hit.
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Old 16 Jul 2007, 21:03   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dark and Chaotic Queston

Well, the evil / good thing becomes a huge issue when it comes the 40K universe. The Chaos are "evil" because they worship the chaos gods. However, how they are bad for what they do and the Imperium is good because it enforces order through violence and the deaths of millions (maybe billions...many due to ritualistic psychic "lighthouse" deaths) and through the eternal purging of its ranks - how this is so is unexplainable.

The Dark Eldar are slightly more cut and dry. They torture their subjects to death for their own pleasure and drink their souls. However, from the Dark Eldar perspective, they are simply trying to ward off the encroachment of Slannesh on their souls. They also see other races (i.e. their victims) as mere animals and think no more of using them than we do of our beef cattle.

But from the perspective of "order" races (Craftworld Eldar, Imperium, Tau) then the Dark Eldar and Chaos are quited evil.
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Old 16 Jul 2007, 22:52   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dark and Chaotic Queston

To me there simply is never a good or evil because its the victor who writes history.
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Old 17 Jul 2007, 00:06   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dark and Chaotic Queston

And how does the victor see himself? In this case, do they think they're evil, or doing what's right in their eyes?
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Originally Posted by GeekyGator
The divide between what gets put up on an art gallery and what gets you thrown in jail is mostly dependent on the quality of the frame, even though both are just as good for fapping.
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Old 17 Jul 2007, 01:23   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dark and Chaotic Queston


No one thinks of themselves as evil. To the Chaos space marines the Emperor turned his back on them and became unworthy of his rule. What they did was for revenge and to place Horus on the throne.

It also comes down to personal beliefs. Some chaos space marines worship chaos because the where forced to worship them (Thousand Sons) or to save their own lives (Death Guard). Some chaos space marines don't even worship the chaos gods and do things for entirely selfish reasons (Iron warriors). Some turn from the Emperor simply for freedome from his oppressiveness, because when you are a chaos space marine you are your own master.
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Old 17 Jul 2007, 03:45   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farseer Aun
Some turn from the Emperor simply for freedome from his oppressiveness, because when you are a chaos space marine you are your own master.
Which can have serious consequences, as Chaos Space Marines are constantly overthrowing and backstabbing eachother, unless if they are led by a very powerful, and very feared Chaos Lord.

Chaos Space Marines don't consider themselves Evil. Yes, some of them do perform horrific acts of genocide and torture, but as a whole, they're aim is to overthrow the weakling Emperor, and replace him with Horus, the Chaos Gods or Abaddon himself.

And the reason they have turned to Chaos was because they needed to when they fled to the Eye of Terror, and Abaddon basically saved many of his own Legion from destruction, by taking command and changing their appearance to mirror their failure, hence the reason why Abaddon is so powerful. All in all, most, if not all of the Chaos Space Marines have sealed a eternal pact with Chaos, so that they can enact their revenge, and harness the power of the Warp without becoming subject to mass mutation or death.
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Old 17 Jul 2007, 04:16   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dark and Chaotic Queston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton
Yes, some of them do perform horrific acts of genocide and torture, but as a whole, they're aim is to overthrow the weakling Emperor, and replace him with Horus, the Chaos Gods or Abaddon himself.
And in a sentence, we've explained away their evil.

Do delude yourself: Chaos is evil. The question is, how much more (or less?) evil are they than everything else in the universe?
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Old 17 Jul 2007, 04:53   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dark and Chaotic Queston

This comes down the the fundamental question of what is good and what is evil. Unfortunately, in the 40K universe, things aren't divided as such. Instead, the division is between Order and Chaos.

In an Order / Choas comparison, a communistic anarchy in which everyone shares their possessions for the benefit of his fellow man would be "less good" than a highly ordered dictatorship where a tyrant rules the lives of and oppresses every citizen.

Unfortunately, Good and Evil have no direct bearing on Chaos and Order. You can just as readily have a Chaotic situation that is good as you can have a chaotic situation that is evil.

However, Good and Evil are most easily recognized by selflessness or selfishness. If a faction or person works readily for the benefit of others at a cost to themselves - then they would be "more good" than someone who would put his own desires and wants before the needs of others.

Again, though, much of this is subjective. For example, the Eldar believe that they are indeed working of the good of the universe by ridding it of mon-keigh - much as a human may work for the good of their household by ridding it of cockroaches. Those who are being destroyed don't look at it as a "good" thing.

Anyway...it's a tough call.
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Old 17 Jul 2007, 05:09   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dark and Chaotic Queston

Quote:
Originally Posted by El'lyi'ot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton
Yes, some of them do perform horrific acts of genocide and torture, but as a whole, they're aim is to overthrow the weakling Emperor, and replace him with Horus, the Chaos Gods or Abaddon himself.
And in a sentence, we've explained away their evil.

Do delude yourself: Chaos is evil. The question is, how much more (or less?) evil are they than everything else in the universe?
No they're not, they're just misunderstood. :P

Emlyn has basically covered what I was going to say, and that there isn't really a "good" "bad" division, just Imperial, Chaos and Xeno.
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