[trex238]

Not sure where this should go so here it goes.

I'm definitely a nerd though when I was younger I was even more so. I was a big fan of both Star Trek & Star Wars until the turn back time moves (Enterprise series & prequel trilogy respectively). I'm still a big fan of Stargate SG-1. Anyways not too long a few of my friends got into the classic ST vs SW fight again & asked me to cast my two cents so I decided to expand the argument between the 2 franchises to include SG1. Since I got into 40k a couple of months ago I decided to expand it again & share. Its hardly fool proof, heck someone might find glaring holes 10 minutes after reading this but I think its got a fairly good coverage.

Warhammer 40000 vs 3 'Star' franchises

To this extent I'm primarily contrasting the dominant powers in the respective universes which in this case are the United Federation of Planets, the Galactic Empire, the Goa'uld System Lords & the Imperium of Man. Note the first 3 are set in specific time constraints for simplicity (TNG-era, classic trilogy, & pre-Ori respectively.) The Federation is the dominant power in their section of the galaxy though they only occupy 1/10th of the Milky Way[1]. The Galactic Empire & Imperium of Man both have majority control of their respective galaxies. The Goa'uld System Lords likewise have majority control as well. Though they are fractured in nature, they do ally against a common foe.

With this information laid out, on to a comparison of power.

Symbols of Power
First on the agenda is space borne combat. In this case the Federation & Imperium both hold the advantage in terms of firepower. To gauge this power we will use a common feature in all science fiction: planets. It is widely known that the Imperium is capable of enacting an Exterminatus on a planet but lesser known is the other powers ability to enact this procedure.

Due to the options available to them the Imperium is on the forefront of this followed by the Federation, the Empire & the System Lords. Why this order for the remaining 3 you might ask? For the Federation & System Lords they have 2 main options of annihilating planetary life, orbital bombardment or massive explosive devices. The Empire has orbital bombardments as well & likely some form of explosive capable of killing a planet but it also has the fearsome Death Star.

Why doesn't the Death Star tilt the balance in their favor? 2 reasons: availability & frequency. The amount resources required to build & maintain one is vast lending to the credence that only Death Star can be realistically maintained at one time. Second the super-laser requires a similarly enormous amount of power requiring a massive recharging to be sufficiently powerful to destroy a planet. So while the Death Star has to recharge for an unspecified but lengthy number of hours, Federation & Imperium forces could have already moved on & destroyed another nearby planet. Limitations aside this power does give the Empire the strongest ability to destroy a world.

With the Death Star out of the equation the Empire's fleet would fall behind the others. An Imperial fleet of Star Destroyers can slag a planet the it would take a fairly extensive amount of time & without special weapons would not penetrate the crust, merely liquifiying the outer layer[2]. The other powers can do this quicker & more efficiently. A fleet of 20 Galaxy class equivalent ships can destroy 1/3 of a planet's crust in a single salvo[3], a feat not even the ships of the Imperium can do (while battleships are fully capable of destroying the crust they would either take considerably more time or in the case of cyclonic torpedoes destroy the planet outright.) Rounding out the comparison a Goa'uld Ha'tak has a variable weapons yield for its primary weapons systems with a limit of 200 megatons a salvo[4], making it quite capable of penetrating a planet's surface especially if used in formation the 20 ship model though this would take time. Factor in the fact that the powers' defensive abilities are meant counter the offensive ones, Imperium & Federation ships are both better armed & protected than System Lords & the Empire with the Federation slightly stronger than the Imperium equivalent.

All four powers possess the ability to create explosive devices that can range on planet killing scale with varying degrees of efficiency.

Manning the Fleet
Next on space borne combat is resources. The 3 galactic powers can easily out produce the Federation in number of ships. Crews are not as significant as Federation ships are highly automated & its largest ships only require around 1000 or so crew. Contrasting this is the multiple thousands of troops on the other ships of the remaining powers. However the quantity of ships could very likely simply strangle the Federation in a protracted war & all 3 would have the manpower to do so. For the System Lords & Empire this would be crucial as their forces are out gunned. For the Imperium similar stats on their ships mean that fewer forces would be necessary to effectively fight.

It should be noted however the 3 galactic powers all have garrisoned ground forces. Should Federation shields fail for any reason, boarding parties could quickly overwhelm the crew, though the Imperium has the best chance of taking over a ship due to the variety of boarding methods.

Maneuvering to Strike
A significant advantage that the System Lords & Empire would have over the others is being able to out maneuver the others strategically. Both powers have the ability to cross the galaxy in relatively short time[5]. The Federation on the other hand is far slower & thus limited to their corner of the galaxy, once more adding to the danger of being choked by a more mobile & numerous foe. The Imperium in contrast is fully capable of crossing the galaxy but travel is erratic at best. 5 light-years could take 5 minutes or 5 weeks. This still allows them to strike from a far broader range but isn't as reliable. While this could in effect create an unbalanced enemy who was leery of possible attack from anywhere at anytime, an actual coordinated attack on multiple fronts is much more difficult much less a counter attack or reinforcement move.

Dancing in the Sky
While strategic movement is the domain of the Empire & the System Lords & to an extent the Imperium, tactical movement would fall to either to the Federation or System Lords. Visual records that the 2 of them possess very agile ships despite their sizes[6]. Conversely the Empire & Imperium's agile ships are usually smaller escorts though the both forces are able to pull of emergency movement rather quickly on larger ships. As such the 2 imperial powers as such tend to adopt a more static firebase approach. This could lead to difficult battles with the other 2 powers weaving in & out of weak points in a fleet.

In the end for space borne combat the most likely winners would be either the United Federation of Planets or the Imperium of Man. The Galactic Empire, though vast & has the most powerful weapons platform, it can be rendered at a large disadvantage should the Death Star be destroyed. The Goa'uld, while possessing several powerful, agile ships they could make any conflict bloody but would likely need to discover or salvage some technology to level the playing field (admittedly this is something they are very good at.) For the United Federation of Planets, with superior firepower & agility, they could win any battle they chose to but would be hard pressed to win a war, especially with the similar power levels & vast resources of the Imperium. As for the Imperium of Man, they possess the most power though sheer size & ship firepower but as always is in danger of being left behind in terms of technology as their progress is minimal compared to the other powers[7], STC discoveries not accounted for.

[1] Star Trek: First Contact states the Federation is spread around 8000 light-years. The Milky Way is believed to cover 80000~100000 lightyears.
[2] A Base Delta Zero order can be carried out in several hours using a sizable fleet of Star Destroyers but can only destroy the upper crust.
[3] During the Battle of the Omarion Nebula 20 Cardassian & Romulan ships destroyed 30% of a planet's crust in the opening shots & had the power to cover the whole planet in approximately 1 hour. The Federation equivalent of both ship types used is the Galaxy
[4] During an attack in an alternate universe the US East Coast was bombarded with blasts calculated to be roughly equivalent to 200 megatons.
[5] A ha'tak is capable of 32,000 times the speed of light. While it is not known the speed of travel for Star Wars virtually the entire galaxy is accessible well within a lifetime.
[6] Statement derived from any visual battles from the Dominion War from Star Trek & the 2 part Reckoning from Stargate
[7] Federation engineers are considered the best there is even by their enemies & they continue to advance at dangerous speed. Goa'uld are very adept at utilizing any technology they salvage as well as imitating technology they observe, within limits. The Empire as well as the whole Star Wars universe seems to have either experienced a technological Dark Age or is on a similar research speed as the Imperium though this may be increasing in speed (moon-sized, planet-killing space stations would require some advancement in technology during the construction)

[Gatler]

Originally Posted by Malus Trux

Warhammer 40000 vs 3 'Star' franchises

To this extent I'm primarily contrasting the dominant powers in the respective universes which in this case are the United Federation of Planets, the Galactic Empire, the Goa'uld System Lords & the Imperium of Man. Note the first 3 are set in specific time constraints for simplicity (TNG-era, classic trilogy, & pre-Ori respectively.)

Restricting the Empire to the classic trilogy is like restricting Star Trek to the old series. Not to mention; the EU is canon.

The Federation is the dominant power in their section of the galaxy though they only occupy 1/10th of the Milky Way[1].

1/10th? They control 250 star systems, in a galaxy with billions. :

The Galactic Empire & Imperium of Man both have majority control of their respective galaxies.

Don't dance around it; the Imperium and the Empire both have at least a million worlds, and the Empire may have as many as 12 million.

The Goa'uld System Lords likewise have majority control as well. Though they are fractured in nature, they do ally against a common foe.

With this information laid out, on to a comparison of power.

Symbols of Power
First on the agenda is space borne combat. In this case the Federation & Imperium both hold the advantage in terms of firepower. To gauge this power we will use a common feature in all science fiction: planets. It is widely known that the Imperium is capable of enacting an Exterminatus on a planet but lesser known is the other powers ability to enact this procedure.

I don't know anything about Stargate stuff, so I'll leave that alone.

[hr]

Your first mistake; the United Federation of Planets is not a significant power compared to either the Galactic Empire or the Imperium of Man.

Because its late, and I'm tired I'll compare Industral Capacity and general scale only.

The Imperium of Man is known to have many thousands of multi-kilometer warships at their disposal. Though the largest are difficult to replace, the Federation is simply incapable of harming them.

The Empire has even more kilometer-long starships at their disposal, and can easily build many millions in a year. How do I figure this? The Death Star was built in three years from raw materials at the construction site. In terms of volume of material, this is roughly equivalent to constructing 27 million Imperial Star Destroyers, any two of which could lay waste to the Federation without difficulty.

[hr]

Rebuttals;

[1] Star Trek: First Contact states the Federation is spread around 8000 light-years. The Milky Way is believed to cover 80000~100000 lightyears.

Area, dude. Not length. :

And another thing; Even if it is spread across 8000 lightyears, the Federation controls a mere 250 star systems. Both the Empire and the Imperium have at least a million.

[2] A Base Delta Zero order can be carried out in several hours using a sizable fleet of Star Destroyers but can only destroy the upper crust.

Base Delta Zero can be carried out by a single Star Destroyer in under an hour. Melting the upper crust of a planet is miles ahead of anything the Federation has ever demonstrated the capability to do. Get your facts straight.

[3] During the Battle of the Omarion Nebula 20 Cardassian & Romulan ships destroyed 30% of a planet's crust in the opening shots & had the power to cover the whole planet in approximately 1 hour. The Federation equivalent of both ship types used is the Galaxy

Except that by actually watching the episode, we can plainly see that this was not the case. By observation, this is false.

[4] During an attack in an alternate universe the US East Coast was bombarded with blasts calculated to be roughly equivalent to 200 megatons.

Ok, lets get something straight here; Federation photon torpedoes have ridiculously low yields. In First Contact, we see Borg energy torpedoes (which are supposed to be superior to photorps) causing blasts which are even less impressive than modern artillery weapons. :

[5] A ha'tak is capable of 32,000 times the speed of light. While it is not known the speed of travel for Star Wars virtually the entire galaxy is accessible well within a lifetime.

Hyperdrive allows the Empire to cross the Galaxy in a matter of days, at millions of times c. Federation Warp takes decades to cross half the galaxy. Imperial Warp is dangerous, unpredictable, and slow by comparison.

[7] Federation engineers are considered the best there is even by their enemies & they continue to advance at dangerous speed. Goa'uld are very adept at utilizing any technology they salvage as well as imitating technology they observe, within limits. The Empire as well as the whole Star Wars universe seems to have either experienced a technological Dark Age or is on a similar research speed as the Imperium though this may be increasing in speed (moon-sized, planet-killing space stations would require some advancement in technology during the construction)

What you fail to realize is that both the Empire and the Imperium are so technologically advanced compared to the Federation that research has absolutely no effect on a war between them. Reverse engineering isn't an option, because it would be like handing Leonardo DaVinci an F-22 Raptor and asking him to build another. He simply can't, because its way over his head. And while the Imperium may be experiencing a Dark Age, it is more likely that the Empire has simply reached an upper limit of their technology.

Oh, and claiming that the Federation engineers are intelligent is ludicrous. Their equipment fails catastrophically in so many situations that joining Starfleet is akin to suicide...

[hr]

I'm going to enjoy this... ;D

[AuinMyrrath]

OH! OH! OH!

Another one! To quote Vin Diesel from Triple X - "I live for this Shtlk!"

[hr]

Okay, first of all, I have to slag Star Trek. They're hopeless, and they're nothing but a chew toy. They could defeat the aliens from Signs, possibly Dune, perhaps Battlstar Galactica, but beyond that, they're toast.

"Symbols of Power"

Firstly, define terms - Planet Killing means rendering a world uninhabitable, Planet Destroying means turning the world into dust.

if you want quick and efficient planetary cleansing, the Imperium is the way to go. With Cyclonic Torpedoes and Virus Bombs, you can wipe a planet in hours... however, planetary destruction with these means is not possible, and canon (if fanboyish in the extreme) sources indicate that Cyclonic Torpedoes are not infallible - Carnifexii can survive in hibernation[sup]1[/sup].

The Imperium can also use Lance Strikes and battery fire to crack a planet's crust, or even destroy it outright.

Next, the Galactic Empire. These guys take the cake, hands down. While not as swift as the Imperium in planet killing, they have an insane amount of ways to turn a world into slag - the Death Star is not their only option, since they also have had the Galaxy Gun and Sun Crusher... they could be built again.

Planet killing? Base Delta Zero is thorough in the extreme. "It is the systematic complete destruction of all 'assets' of production, including factories, arable land, mines, fisheries, and all sentient beings and droids."[sup]2[/sup] And they do this in a matter of hours.

Stargate? I don't know, to be honest. I've heard of "naquida nukes", but I've never seen them in action. I know that Ori weapons seem to be lacking in firepower, considering an episode where a beam designed to vape a town scorched the ground but barely cratered.

Star Trek? Lawl. We have never seen the United Federation of Planets effect a bombardment of the scale to wipe a planet clean of life. Planet destruction has been achieved in the show, but the times I recall it was done by a bunch of unicidal biotech aliens or a mad scientist.

"Manning the Fleet"

The Imperium has sizable fleets and a near-endless supply of manpower. That said, their shipbuilding is painfully slow and many older vessels can never be replaced if lost in battle.

The Galactic Empire has an industrial capacity that beggars the imagination. Estimates of fleet size range as high as 25,000 Imperial-Class Star Destroyers. Given the volume of the second Death Star compared to that of an ISD, the Empire could (inj simple raw material terms) have instead used the resources that went into the DS2 to build something like twenty-seven million (number might be off, I can't remember) Star Destroyers.

Stargate... well, this has me at a disadvantage given my lacking knowledge of the show. I can't find any hard numbers on their fleet sizes.

United Federation of Planets took thirteen years to build the first three Galaxy-Class Starships, starting after design was complete. Their fleet counts include fighters and freightes; by UFP standards, a single Imperial Star Destroyer constitutes an 80+ ship fleet with its TIEs and shuttles. Moving on.

"Maneuvering to Strike"

Warp Travel, Imperial-style, is very haphazard and relativity makes a nightmare for fleets; traveling more than a few lightyears hopelessly distorts time[sup]3[/sup].

Again, Star Wars has a clear cut advantage - with a high-rating hyperdrive, any equipped vessel can cross the galaxy in 10-20 hours, depending on the route. Canoninically, hyperdrives allow travel between 1.2x10[sup]6[/sup] to 3.6x10[sup]6[/sup] c[sup]4[/sup].

Stargate seems to have fast FTL, but 3.2x10[sup]4[/sup] c isn't that impressive... they can outstrip the UFP by far however, who can make something like 3,000 to 9,000 c[sup]5[/sup].

"Dancing in the Sky"
... is irrelevant. Who care's if you're maneuverable? Gunners in the Imperium routinely fire on "starfighters" the size of Learjets and expect to score hits. Galactic Empire gunners can hit jetfighter-sized ships with turbolaser emplacements designed to destroy capital ships[sup]6[/sup]. The Federation do themselves no favours by dancing about, either, since they don't seem to be able to hit anything, even at ranges measured in hundreds of meters, while canon states that the Imperium fights at ranges from tens to hundreds of kilometers, and SW combat can be conducted at light-minute range.

1 - Codex: Tyranids
2 - Imperial Sourcebook
3 - Battlefleet Gothic Rulebook
4 - ANH & ROTJ
5 - TNG Technical Manual
6 - ANH

[hr]

This is just an analysis of the first post. The real storm of hellfire (40k vs. SW) is probably inevitable, and we're waiting >.

Edit: Darnit, Thunder, you stole mine . You also found a couple things I missed...

Note the first 3 are set in specific time constraints for simplicity (TNG-era, classic trilogy, & pre-Ori respectively.)

It's bogus, but it suits me fine... numbers from Voyager and DS9 are just as unflattering to your cause (as you evidently seem to hold the Federation in high esteem).

[Spiritbw]

All I can say is, please, please, please don't drag the UFP through this. HAnds down they are the least capable of all Space fairing societies imagined when it comes to being a military. The Star Trek universe is nice, but it has no comparison to the Likes of Star Wars, 40K the Honor Harrington universe....

The only force that measures on the same scale as Star Trek is probably Battletech.

[trex238]

Originally Posted by Lord-General Thunder

Rebuttals;

Area, dude. Not length. :

And another thing; Even if it is spread across 8000 lightyears, the Federation controls a mere 250 star systems. Both the Empire and the Imperium have at least a million.

I assumed it was square light-years. With that reasoning is it that hard to infer 1/10th? Also in TOS they had 1000 worlds & were expanding. I used TNG-era where they had that many colonies.

[2] A Base Delta Zero order can be carried out in several hours using a sizable fleet of Star Destroyers but can only destroy the upper crust.

Base Delta Zero can be carried out by a single Star Destroyer in under an hour. Melting the upper crust of a planet is miles ahead of anything the Federation has ever demonstrated the capability to do. Get your facts straight.
[/quote]

Where does that actually take place? AFAIK the only instance of that type of order in an actual EU account involved Star Destroyers was when the Bothan homeworld was supposed to be eradicated & that was involving 3 Star Destroyers, not 1. Other than the quote of a Star Destroyer can level a planet in an unspecified in the Imperial Source book.

Except that by actually watching the episode, we can plainly see that this was not the case. By observation, this is false.

Two things. Since when has visual accuracy been their number 1 goal? They just had a lot of pretty lights speed towards the surface. The producers could have either (A) figured they could save a few bucks or (B) think what does it really look like & assume it looked fine as we'd don't have a real reference point or (C) overlooked it (very likely in Star Trek). Second the reported damage was from the comm officer which is what the basis of damage is inferred from.

Ok, lets get something straight here; Federation photon torpedoes have ridiculously low yields. In First Contact, we see Borg energy torpedoes (which are supposed to be superior to photorps) causing blasts which are even less impressive than modern artillery weapons. :

Actually thats a quote from Stargate. The Goa'uld Mothership is said to have done the 200 megaton damage.

Hyperdrive allows the Empire to cross the Galaxy in a matter of days, at millions of times c. Federation Warp takes decades to cross half the galaxy. Imperial Warp is dangerous, unpredictable, and slow by comparison.

The only reference I've seen for relative speed in SW is that it took an Imperial fleet in the Thrawn trilogy 6 weeks to cross half the galaxy. They operate Class 2 hyperdrives IIRC as thats their slowest ship so a Class 1 could likely make the trip across the whole galaxy in the same time or if you were in the Falcon, across the in galaxy in 3 weeks on average depending on what route it took (not going to go into the hyperspace route system for Star Wars).

Let me say one thing to sum up what my views on the UFP is in this fight. They're a utopian-type society with limited production capabilities on comparison. They're going to lose against galactic powers like the Empire or Imperium who seem to have a new war every time they turn around. Their saving grace is that one on one their ships will have a firepower/shielding advantage (of course the likelihood of a one on one fight is very low). I base this statement on the aforementioned 20 ships that vaporised 1/3rd of a planet's crust in a single salvo. It takes a lot of power to go through even the upper crust & they went through the whole thing in one volley.

EDIT: I need to learn to type faster. Ok for production yeah I agree the Empire wins. But as far as the maneuvering, the weapons you use to take down a fighter is not going to take down a fast moving Defiant class ship. And in ANH they had to send out ships to engage the fighters. If there's a ship relatively still vs a faster, more maneuverable one at extreme weapons ranges then I'd bet on the one moving more. It'll still get tagged but the more static one will get tagged more often.

EDIT2: As for Stargate none of the powers in the Milky Way could challenge either the Imperium or the Empire as far as production. The Jaffa Nation might as it inherited most production & fleet assets from the System Lords but its too busy consolidating its wins or licking its wounds from the Ori. Now the Ori might be able to challenge them as the are a galactic power plus a single production village was able to produce 4 battle ready ships in under a year from scratch & supposedly there were more villages on the planet with thousands of planets.

As far as the naquidah enhanced nukes, the only one really worth noticing is the Mk 9. In "Beachhead" you can see it cover a considerable area before the shield out runs it, something like a several gigaton detonation, covering a 160 km radius.

On the SG hyperdrive that number is based on an interstellar drive. An intergalactic like what Earth uses at the end of SG1 is far faster & is subject to the amount of power fed into it. Under normal power it takes 3 weeks to travel the 3 million light-years between the Milky Way & Pegasus Galaxies. With a ZPM to power it the same trip takes 4 days giving Stargate the fastest FTL drive of the 4 hands down, in either configuration.

[Spiritbw]

Just for comparison sake on size of ships, I would direct your attention to Jeff Russell's Starship Dimensions, for comparison of ships.

The Empire and Imperium ships start on -2X scale along wiht one Stargate ship and a large number of Star Trek ones.

I would also like to make a note about Imperium weapon ranges. According to the book "Execution Hour" 15,000 km is considered "point blank" range for the Imperium of man ships. It should also be considered that Imperium ships don't aim directly at thier targets with anything other than lance batteries. Most of thier weapons batteries operate on the idea similar to those used in WWII flak cannons. Mainly to fill a given area with blasts and a percentage hit.

[Krell]

Seriously, strike Star Trek from the record. The Federation is a small power centered around Earth and a few colonies, with a bunch of allied planets in an economic and occasionally military alliance. They're no Empire.

[Wargamer]

Yeah, I'd love to see the Borg vs the Imperium.
"We are the Borg."
"This is a Macro Cannon!"
*Cube explodes*
Borg Shields don't work against kinetic impact. :P

[Hadhfang]

Originally Posted by Wargamer

Yeah, I'd love to see the Borg vs the Imperium.
"We are the Borg."
"This is a Macro Cannon!"
*Cube explodes*
Borg Shields don't work against kinetic impact. :P

Added to that the Federation hardly ever have shields up until conflict. Which would be too late.


"Captain, We've picked up an unidentifed vessel"
"Hail them:
"I am captain -"
"You are an enemy of the imperium, Burn heretic!"

*Terminators bean onto bridge*

...


See?

[Wargamer]

Or better yet...

"We are the united Federation of Planets, we welcome you in peace."
"We are the Tau, we reciprocate your greeting, and offer you our friendship."
"You seem an advanced race, perhaps you'd like to join us?"
"I am sorry, we cannot. However, you are welcome to join us."
"But we asked first!"
"Yeah, but we've got the better Empire..."
"Empire? That? I've seen Bigger Empires in that shitty prequal series we had!"
"Look, dude, we've been around for two whole Editions, so give us some respect!"
"Respect? You're even sadder than those weird blue-skinned freaks who appear as cameo aliens during TNG!"


Meanwhile...
"Ha, look at those losers over there! Hissy fit!"
"Indeed. They will soon be forced to realise the truth, and bow to the Emperor."
"Absolutely. The Emperor's might is unquestionable. His fleet is fast, and its guns never tire."
"With but a thought, he could strike them down with all his hate..."
"Not that he'd ever need to, what with his mighty armies."
"And his all powerful servants."
"Wouldn't need the powerful servants! I could conquer that bloody Enterprise with just one company of Imperial Storm Troopers!"
"Indeed, it's not like the Trekkies wear any armour."
"..."
"..."
"...Which Emperor are we talking about here?"
"Well, I'm talking about mine, obviously."
"And which one is that?"
"The one who commands the entire galaxy."
"They both do..."
"Umm... he's really, really old."
"They both are."
"He's the one everyone's scared of."
"Okay, but which one is he? What's his name?"
"...The Emperor."
"Oh that's just stupid!"
"Well, what's your called?"
"He's..."
"Yes?"
"[size=1pt]Emperor[/size]"
"I'm sorry? I didn't quite catch that?"
"...The Emperor."
"..."
"..."
"But those Tau REALLY suck, don't they!"